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Old 12-08-2009, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Peoria, AZ
1,064 posts, read 2,656,397 times
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Can anyone explain what the benefit is to keeping this county so big? Weren't the boundaries drawn up when it was a wild west frontier and people were scarce?

I read our county has more of a population than 24 other states. It runs from way out west in Wickenburg, to past tortilla flat in the east and all the down south into Gila Bend and god only knows how far north.

Isnt this like putting all your eggs in one basket? Isn't it too big to manage properly whereas smaller surrounding counties might be able to micromanage smaller regions more efficiently? Could this part of the reason for our economic woes since all decisions for such a huge land mass are made by just ONE county?

Does anyone have a differing viewpoint as to why such a huge county is beneficial because by my own uneducated theory, I tend to think its a detriment.
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
3,995 posts, read 9,982,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmist View Post
Can anyone explain what the benefit is to keeping this county so big? Weren't the boundaries drawn up when it was a wild west frontier and people were scarce?

I read our county has more of a population than 24 other states. It runs from way out west in Wickenburg, to past tortilla flat in the east and all the down south into Gila Bend and god only knows how far north.

Isnt this like putting all your eggs in one basket? Isn't it too big to manage properly whereas smaller surrounding counties might be able to micromanage smaller regions more efficiently? Could this part of the reason for our economic woes since all decisions for such a huge land mass are made by just ONE county?

Does anyone have a differing viewpoint as to why such a huge county is beneficial because by my own uneducated theory, I tend to think its a detriment.
No not at all; our economic woes have more to do with a HIGH dependency on sales tax revenue for city and state functions than county. Our real economic problems lies in state coffers and not county. More counties create more need for money to pay more bureaucratic layers from the state. In the east coast, many states, counties, and cities charge high property tax rates AND income taxes in order to fund their functions; translation, very high cost of living as a governmental function.
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Old 12-08-2009, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Tijuana Exurbs
4,525 posts, read 12,341,512 times
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I'm not an Arizonan, so I don't have a front row seat to the problems of Maricopa County, but I have seen this same question posed about Riverside and San Bernardino counties in California, and to some degree, Los Angeles county as well. I would perhaps pose the question a bit differently, perhaps Maricopa county isn't too big as it is too diverse in it's bigness. You have the heavily urban stretches of Phoenix coupled with the far off rural areas that have no connection to the urbanness of the center city. The rural areas may be so far off that they don't funnel a stream of commuters into Phoenix on a daily basis, and in few other ways have any real connection to the central city. However, there's probably no need for the counties of Arizona to be reduced in size to the microdots of Iowa, where every county looks like it's 10 miles square either.

There was a proposal in San Bernardino county about a decade ago to split off the thinly populated bulk of the county from the densely populated western edge. It failed in the referendum as the populated parts thought they gained a lot of recognition from being one of the biggest counties in the entire country. But other than the publicity from the size, I couldn't see what the urban areas of San Bernardino gained from having the bulk of the Mojave desert in the same county.
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Old 12-08-2009, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kettlepot View Post
I'm not an Arizonan, so I don't have a front row seat to the problems of Maricopa County, but I have seen this same question posed about Riverside and San Bernardino counties in California, and to some degree, Los Angeles county as well. I would perhaps pose the question a bit differently, perhaps Maricopa county isn't too big as it is too diverse in it's bigness. You have the heavily urban stretches of Phoenix coupled with the far off rural areas that have no connection to the urbanness of the center city. The rural areas may be so far off that they don't funnel a stream of commuters into Phoenix on a daily basis, and in few other ways have any real connection to the central city. However, there's probably no need for the counties of Arizona to be reduced in size to the microdots of Iowa, where every county looks like it's 10 miles square either.

There was a proposal in San Bernardino county about a decade ago to split off the thinly populated bulk of the county from the densely populated western edge. It failed in the referendum as the populated parts thought they gained a lot of recognition from being one of the biggest counties in the entire country. But other than the publicity from the size, I couldn't see what the urban areas of San Bernardino gained from having the bulk of the Mojave desert in the same county.
Yeah, I don't think recognition is an issue AT all; but money is. In state constitutions and other laws, counties must be funded to provide services despite lack of population. Therefore, at least in Arizona and probably California, a Sheriff, jail, services, etc would require more money for an area that is sparsely populated and open land with little service needs.
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Old 12-08-2009, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Peoria, AZ
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I think Maricopa has enough population to at least divide into an east and west. I understand that the sparsely populated areas benefit from the funding coming from larger population centers, but there is probably enough of a population to go around and probably split it into thirds. Center, East & West

I'm not sure what the benefit there is to smaller or larger, I just know that almost every other area of the country operates completely different than we do. Mostly I analyze the real estate market and try to understand why it is we collapsed harder than most everywhere else.

Part of me thinks that if there were different counties managing the growth, we could have been spared some of the turmoil if one county had a completely different stance on development... but I'm not really sure. I just feel like Maricopa is a beast of county, and yes, as the other post stated, diverse enough that a decision made for one region may not be the best decision for another part.
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Old 12-08-2009, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
3,995 posts, read 9,982,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmist View Post
I think Maricopa has enough population to at least divide into an east and west. I understand that the sparsely populated areas benefit from the funding coming from larger population centers, but there is probably enough of a population to go around and probably split it into thirds. Center, East & West

I'm not sure what the benefit there is to smaller or larger, I just know that almost every other area of the country operates completely different than we do. Mostly I analyze the real estate market and try to understand why it is we collapsed harder than most everywhere else.

Part of me thinks that if there were different counties managing the growth, we could have been spared some of the turmoil if one county had a completely different stance on development... but I'm not really sure. I just feel like Maricopa is a beast of county, and yes, as the other post stated, diverse enough that a decision made for one region may not be the best decision for another part.
Again, not a county issue. The real estate market collapsed here and elsewhere for many reasons; sub-prime loans (those wanting a $400,000 house when they could only reasonable afford a $200,000 house), a drive til you qualify approach to buying in the exurbs that in the end where the hardest hit markets because of location and the added costs of driving to/from work (as a side note, one of the worst hit areas was outside Maricopa in Pinal), and investor inflation of the market from out of state. This is true of the still hardest hit markets in the country; Florida, California, Vegas, and now places like Portland, Boise, and Boston (especially in commercial real estate).
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Old 12-08-2009, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Peoria, AZ
1,064 posts, read 2,656,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcorrales80 View Post
Again, not a county issue. The real estate market collapsed here and elsewhere for many reasons; sub-prime loans (those wanting a $400,000 house when they could only reasonable afford a $200,000 house), a drive til you qualify approach to buying in the exurbs that in the end where the hardest hit markets because of location and the added costs of driving to/from work (as a side note, one of the worst hit areas was outside Maricopa in Pinal), and investor inflation of the market from out of state. This is true of the still hardest hit markets in the country; Florida, California, Vegas, and now places like Portland, Boise, and Boston (especially in commercial real estate).
Right, I'm aware of the major reasons, and it was a nationwide ordeal. But Phoenix waivered between #2 & #3 as the worst in the entire country. The unbridled growth placed MORE people in that position HERE than almost everywhere else.

I'm not sure who is responsible for allowing Metro Phoenix to reach its tentacles so far out in every direction into the desert. I'm also not sure if the county has anything to do with it.

It was more of a question as to why there is a need for something so HUGE when its clearly not a typical setup compared to the rest of the nation.
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Old 12-08-2009, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
3,995 posts, read 9,982,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmist View Post
Right, I'm aware of the major reasons, and it was a nationwide ordeal. But Phoenix waivered between #2 & #3 as the worst in the entire country. The unbridled growth placed MORE people in that position HERE than almost everywhere else.

I'm not sure who is responsible for allowing Metro Phoenix to reach its tentacles so far out in every direction into the desert. I'm also not sure if the county has anything to do with it.

It was more of a question as to why there is a need for something so HUGE when its clearly not a typical setup compared to the rest of the nation.
I think I see what you are trying to get at. If we had smaller counties, would there be some bureaucratic resolution to curtail sprawl? Simply no. If you take areas other cities sprawl further than Phoenix (most) they encompass many counties and even through other states; Atlanta which nearly sprawl 75-100 miles from the city center compared to 40 miles for Phoenix is encircled by endless counties same for Houston, Dallas, Seattle, Los Angeles, and Minneapolis. In the East Coast megalopolis that stretches from north of Boston to Washington, D.C. and soon Richmond, VA to Virginia Beach, VA and Chicago into Indiana and Wisconsin, St. Louis into Illinois, and Portland into Washington State...
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Old 12-08-2009, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
38,971 posts, read 50,902,191 times
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I see no advantage in Balkanization. I think the argument could be made that problems like air quality, transportation and attracting "jobs" are just made much worse by having more jurisdications all looking out for their own interests at the expense of the whole. You need look no further than the cities to see this in action.

I do think we could use more supervisor districts in the county. I recall that got voted down (home rule?) several years ago.


I think it is a real stretch to suggest that the economic problems of the world are due to Maricopa County being too large. MC county is not the only place in recession. Two-three years of economic contraction and we just forget about the preceding (and I would argue coming) decades when the county lead the nation in job creation and growth? Geez, recessions happen!

Last edited by Ponderosa; 12-08-2009 at 04:14 PM..
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Old 12-08-2009, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Peoria, AZ
1,064 posts, read 2,656,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcorrales80 View Post
I think I see what you are trying to get at. If we had smaller counties, would there be some bureaucratic resolution to curtail sprawl? Simply no. If you take areas other cities sprawl further than Phoenix (most) they encompass many counties and even through other states; Atlanta which nearly sprawl 75-100 miles from the city center compared to 40 miles for Phoenix is encircled by endless counties same for Houston, Dallas, Seattle, Los Angeles, and Minneapolis. In the East Coast megalopolis that stretches from north of Boston to Washington, D.C. and soon Richmond, VA to Virginia Beach, VA and Chicago into Indiana and Wisconsin, St. Louis into Illinois, and Portland into Washington State...
I'm not sure what the point is above. I get you are saying that everywhere else sprawls worse than Phoenix, as you usually say, but it doesn't change the fact that we were hit worse than ALL the cities mentioned above. The information you present above would be proof that the issues we have are not related to sprawl since they sprawl more than we do by your account, but yet their real estate markets were not crushed in the same manor.

Somehow, someway, somebody made some decisions that caused a massive oversupply and it has made most real estate here practically unsellable. Yes there is a pickup in the lowest end of the market, but sale prices are lower now even compared to 3 months ago.

I watch this because I WANT to move but can't. I bought 8 years ago and never refinanced any equity out. I'm having trouble breaking even though I was responsible and got a great deal, and I'm in a better position than most.

Its my thought that perhaps if the decisions weren't all made my one supreme authority over such a huge spread, different decisions would have been made by different counties and maybe we might have a more diverse economic base.

Who knows? I'm just throwing out some thoughts and not claiming to be the big cheese about any of it.
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