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Old 06-20-2010, 03:04 AM
 
Location: Tokyo (but will always be) Phoenix, Az
926 posts, read 1,086,644 times
Reputation: 486

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Hmmm... Maybe it's because of all the new office buildings and hotels going up around the state.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:40 AM
 
3,886 posts, read 6,388,230 times
Reputation: 1431
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmist View Post
I think its a little sad that the only way Phx can make itself feel better is by laughing at other states problems. We have our own backyard to clean up and pointing at someone elses mess doesn't make us any cleaner.
I totally agree with you. It's very "high school" and not an impressive way of avoiding a reply with an answer you don't really have. lol

Here is my long winded description on why recovery will be a yo yo, and slower than normal.

Unfortunately, AZ will probably be involved in the "Nation wide" fall back they expect one last time before a steady climb out of the whole shall take place. It won't just be us but everyone who has previously suffered will take one step back before moving forward next year. This is only a prediction of course but thats what the "group that decides these things" are saying right now.
Expect a backwards flow one more time then a steady climb when we are use to the reset.

Who knows, now that people are trying to be responsible Americans it is going to be hard to climb out of this capitalistic pit. We are built on something other than responsibility. Note, consumerism is used for basic needs, not really an idea that can be manipulated back to the good ole days without everyone retaining the credit they lost. The only way that succeeds is by spending air on credit cards, car loans and homes. Go figure.

I have no personal predictions for our economy. It's a crap shoot, and depends on the attitudes of the people. If they keep being responsible because of fear we may not ever recover fully. And maybe we shouldn't. Who knows. I do know that the words responsible, and honest don't fall into the Capitalist vocabulary. It just isn't capable and can't include those ideas and function like we are use too.

"Production is started not by what consumers are prepared to pay for to satisfy their needs but by what the capitalists calculate can be sold at a profit. Those goods may satisfy human needs but those needs will not be met if people do not have sufficient money".
"Under the system of capitalism, the means for producing and distributing goods (the land, factories, technology, transport system etc) are owned by a small minority of people. We refer to this group of people as the capitalist class. The majority of people must sell their ability to work in return for a wage or salary (who we refer to as the working class.)"

The working class are paid to produce goods and services which are then sold for a profit. The profit is gained by the capitalist class because they can make more money selling what we have produced than we cost to buy on the labour market. In this sense, the working class are exploited by the capitalist class. The capitalists live off the profits they obtain from exploiting the working class whilst reinvesting some of their profits for the further accumulation of wealth.

Its simple, and profit motivated, it cannot exist without this, nor would it be called capitalism. The rip off factor has to occur, if we keep trying to avoid it we will avoid recovery.

I am not against Capitalism, but, I don't think honest, hard working Americans really understand it. At least not from what I get from most people in conversation. If they did then we would be recovering a little bit faster here, you can't be gun shy and promote a healthy Capitalist society.
In order to recover we need to spend, once again, money we have not yet made on goods we don't really need. Unless we start doing what got us into this recession in the first place we won't recover successfully in a capitalist system. It's not possible, so, if we are responsible consumers, then we will continue to have a weak economy for a long time to come. We will be changing the methods of capitalism. Maybe we should, but I hope people start reading about the side effects to capitalism this will have.

Other than that, recessions and even depressions are part of our system of things and cannot be avoided in capitalism. Think of it as sort of a reset button. lol

I've been doing a lot of thinking on this issue and this is just my opinion after my read on what's going on, feel free to disagree with me. Before you call me a socialist, ask me to explain what I think of it first. lol
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
17,605 posts, read 20,977,728 times
Reputation: 9245
Quote:
Originally Posted by twiggy View Post
I totally agree with you. It's very "high school" and not an impressive way of avoiding a reply with an answer you don't really have. lol

Here is my long winded description on why recovery will be a yo yo, and slower than normal.

Unfortunately, AZ will probably be involved in the "Nation wide" fall back they expect one last time before a steady climb out of the whole shall take place. It won't just be us but everyone who has previously suffered will take one step back before moving forward next year. This is only a prediction of course but thats what the "group that decides these things" are saying right now.
Expect a backwards flow one more time then a steady climb when we are use to the reset.

Who knows, now that people are trying to be responsible Americans it is going to be hard to climb out of this capitalistic pit. We are built on something other than responsibility. Note, consumerism is used for basic needs, not really an idea that can be manipulated back to the good ole days without everyone retaining the credit they lost. The only way that succeeds is by spending air on credit cards, car loans and homes. Go figure.

I have no personal predictions for our economy. It's a crap shoot, and depends on the attitudes of the people. If they keep being responsible because of fear we may not ever recover fully. And maybe we shouldn't. Who knows. I do know that the words responsible, and honest don't fall into the Capitalist vocabulary. It just isn't capable and can't include those ideas and function like we are use too.

"Production is started not by what consumers are prepared to pay for to satisfy their needs but by what the capitalists calculate can be sold at a profit. Those goods may satisfy human needs but those needs will not be met if people do not have sufficient money".
"Under the system of capitalism, the means for producing and distributing goods (the land, factories, technology, transport system etc) are owned by a small minority of people. We refer to this group of people as the capitalist class. The majority of people must sell their ability to work in return for a wage or salary (who we refer to as the working class.)"

The working class are paid to produce goods and services which are then sold for a profit. The profit is gained by the capitalist class because they can make more money selling what we have produced than we cost to buy on the labour market. In this sense, the working class are exploited by the capitalist class. The capitalists live off the profits they obtain from exploiting the working class whilst reinvesting some of their profits for the further accumulation of wealth.

Its simple, and profit motivated, it cannot exist without this, nor would it be called capitalism. The rip off factor has to occur, if we keep trying to avoid it we will avoid recovery.

I am not against Capitalism, but, I don't think honest, hard working Americans really understand it. At least not from what I get from most people in conversation. If they did then we would be recovering a little bit faster here, you can't be gun shy and promote a healthy Capitalist society.
In order to recover we need to spend, once again, money we have not yet made on goods we don't really need. Unless we start doing what got us into this recession in the first place we won't recover successfully in a capitalist system. It's not possible, so, if we are responsible consumers, then we will continue to have a weak economy for a long time to come. We will be changing the methods of capitalism. Maybe we should, but I hope people start reading about the side effects to capitalism this will have.

Other than that, recessions and even depressions are part of our system of things and cannot be avoided in capitalism. Think of it as sort of a reset button. lol

I've been doing a lot of thinking on this issue and this is just my opinion after my read on what's going on, feel free to disagree with me. Before you call me a socialist, ask me to explain what I think of it first. lol
Twig, a lot of your posts have me pulling my hair out, but this one is right on with respect to what is needed for recovery. Spend, baby, spend! So called "responsible" behavior is going to prolong or prevent a return to prosperity and paradoxically lead to socialism.
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:10 AM
 
3,886 posts, read 6,388,230 times
Reputation: 1431
Thanks Pond, and I do try to make you pull your hair out sometimes, lol, sorry. he he

It's nice to be understood.
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Old 06-20-2010, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Anchored in Phoenix
1,782 posts, read 2,391,068 times
Reputation: 1363
On the contrary, "Responsible" and "honest' DO have a lot to do with a capitalist economy with a political system to protect the individual from fraud, theft, force, or the thread of force. This country was founded on the combination of free markets and small government, and it was no coincidence that it was a pair. They did make a minor mistake at the time, which became our major blunder when they left out the right to property from the group "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Arizona
803 posts, read 1,456,711 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
"It's not possible, so, if we are responsible consumers, then we will continue to have a weak economy for a long time to come."
I am not a consumer and resent references to the "American consumer," generally by politicians or CNBC dunderheads. I am a citizen of the United States of America, and I would like to be referred to as such. Buying a used vehicle every 5-7 years, a new laptop every 3 or so, and some groceries when I run out is hardly a defining characteristic of my life.

I relish the change in perspective regarding the spending of a meaningful portion of one's net worth on plasma televisions, etc., or replacing perfectly good automobiles. I know that my perspective is still in the minority, but it is nice to know that societal and government messages to spend, spend, spend are facing the realities of the fallout of consumerism gone awry and bubble economies.

It often seems like an uphill battle: I buy used cars so the government spends billions to bribe people to buy new cars and actually requires the destruction of working vehicles. I favor cheaper housing so the government spends billions bribing people to buy houses and (briefly) slows the market process of price discovery. I save money and government/central bank policies make the interest rates available to savers virtually non-existent. All of this to keep away scary, scary deflation. I embrace deflation, in Arizona or anywhere else.
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