Future commuter rail system ? (Phoenix: universities, earthquakes, costs)
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Before any of that happens, serious improvements need to be made on and along Grand Avenue. That road is a friggin' eyesore in most locations!
Glendale and Surprise are already working on it. It's a pain driving along it right now, worse the closer you get to the 101 (either direction). They're even putting up sound barrier walls. It would be much nicer if there weren't any stop lights along the way, but I seriously doubt that will ever happen.
That'd be great in Glendale for Football and Hockey games. You could really save a bundle on parking, wouldn't be wasting time in traffic, wouldn't have to worry about a DUI (if you drink), and many surface parking lots could be turned into something more productive.
"I was at the airport a couple of days ago and saw the construction underway for the airport link."
And what's the airport link cost again? It's over 1 billion... for 5 miles. Wow. At least tax payers aren't on the hook for it (just those who fly in and out of Sky Harbor in fees added on to their ticket prices).
"Obviously, to YOU it is a bad idea. To MANY others, it is a great idea - and long in coming."
OK, and to many others it's a terrible idea. What's your point?
If the BNSF and/or UP railroads (or some other private company) want to put in a commuter train, I have no problem with that. But how much deeper in the hole do we need to go with tax dollars before we say "Enough!" Do we really need to spend 30-50 billion on a commuter train (plus tens of millions annually to operate it above and beyond the cost of tickets) so 1-2% of the folks here will ride it? Are there not better (cheaper and/or more efficient) options? Or is this another thing we just "have to have", at the cost of school, police and fire budgets, etc, etc, etc? (Or, do we need to tax ourselves to the point that we cannot afford to live here anymore like they did in San Francisco, New York, etc, etc, etc?).
"I was at the airport a couple of days ago and saw the construction underway for the airport link."
And what's the airport link cost again? It's over 1 billion... for 5 miles. Wow. At least tax payers aren't on the hook for it (just those who fly in and out of Sky Harbor in fees added on to their ticket prices).
"Obviously, to YOU it is a bad idea. To MANY others, it is a great idea - and long in coming."
OK, and to many others it's a terrible idea. What's your point?
If the BNSF and/or UP railroads (or some other private company) want to put in a commuter train, I have no problem with that. But how much deeper in the hole do we need to go with tax dollars before we say "Enough!" Do we really need to spend 30-50 billion on a commuter train (plus tens of millions annually to operate it above and beyond the cost of tickets) so 1-2% of the folks here will ride it? Are there not better (cheaper and/or more efficient) options? Or is this another thing we just "have to have", at the cost of school, police and fire budgets, etc, etc, etc? (Or, do we need to tax ourselves to the point that we cannot afford to live here anymore like they did in San Francisco, New York, etc, etc, etc?).
So what's your suggestion --------
Don't build any mass Transportation systems, and let everyone clog the Streets with their gas-guzzling SUV's and gigantic pick-up trucks??????
I have made many suggestions in previous threads. I have neither the time nor energy to keep repeating them every time a new thread comes up. If you are really interested in my ideas, use the search feature or dig through my post history. But please note that there are indeed many other options that are not only cheaper, but more efficient. They are just not us flashy. They are just not tax-paid-for eye candy, which is all the commuter rail would be.
"Don't build any mass Transportation systems, and let everyone clog the Streets with their gas-guzzling SUV's and gigantic pick-up trucks??????"
Deamonizing SUVs and pick-up trucks is a lame arguement. If you wish to drive an over-priced golf-cart, good for you! Most people don't. If unclogging streets is your big concern, then you should know that the commuter rail will do very little or nothing to unclog them (just as they light-rail has done nothing, and in fact has made traffic worse in some areas). There are real solutions, not just fancy, eye-candy, tax-burdening ones.
Besides, I don't accept your premise that building mass-transit will unclog the streets. Every city that has "world-class mass-transit" also has world class clogged streets. One issue that's never discussed is the root question of "why are these cars here?" You can never do any more than place a temporary band-aid over the issue until you solve the root problem. Something to think about.
I have made many suggestions in previous threads. I have neither the time nor energy to keep repeating them every time a new thread comes up. If you are really interested in my ideas, use the search feature or dig through my post history. But please note that there are indeed many other options that are not only cheaper, but more efficient. They are just not us flashy. They are just not tax-paid-for eye candy, which is all the commuter rail would be.
Light-rail has proven to be efficient and it's getting the Riders they anticipated - if not more so. It's costly I admit but the voters obviously wanted it or they would have struck it down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritchie_az
Deamonizing SUVs and pick-up trucks is a lame arguement. If you wish to drive an over-priced golf-cart, good for you! Most people don't. If unclogging streets is your big concern, then you should know that the commuter rail will do very little or nothing to unclog them (just as they light-rail has done nothing, and in fact has made traffic worse in some areas). There are real solutions, not just fancy, eye-candy, tax-burdening ones.
Besides, I don't accept your premise that building mass-transit will unclog the streets. Every city that has "world-class mass-transit" also has world class clogged streets. One issue that's never discussed is the root question of "why are these cars here?" You can never do any more than place a temporary band-aid over the issue until you solve the root problem. Something to think about.
Demonizing Transit ideas is also a lame arguement - works both ways!!!!!!
I'd rather hop on a Train, save $$$$, and not be funding the big Oil tycoons with my hard-earned moolah. That's just my preference though. I'm sure you might not mind driving your big vehicle and paying all that $$$$ at the Pump.
"Light-rail has proven to be efficient and it's getting the Riders they anticipated - if not more so. It's costly I admit but the voters obviously wanted it or they would have struck it down."
First, yes, voters approved it. Does that make it the right decision? Voters vote for all sorts of bills and politicians that, in hind sight, weren't the best ideas.
Second, I don't think most people realize or can even grasp how costly the light-rail is. Is one and a half billion something most people can even rap their minds around? Or even the millions annually it cost to operate it above and beyond ticket prices?
Third, yes, ridership is above "expected", but still less than 1% of commuters use the light-rail (and we don't know how many of those riders were, prior to the light-rail, bus riders, bicyclists, car-poolers, etc, to know how many cars were actually "taken off the roads"). For 1.5 billion and millions annually, so much more could have been done to ease traffic. Heck, those riders could have been paid to stay home, and it likely would have cost tax-payers less! And, like I said, in some areas (because of poor design) the light-rail has made traffic worse.
"Demonizing Transit ideas is also a lame arguement - works both ways!!!!!!"
When did I deamonize mass-transit? All I said was it's not the cure-all, fix-all that it is advertised to be. Mass transit can be good, and it works in some areas. But it can be bad, too, and not work well at all in other areas. I believe Phoenix to be one of those areas it doesn't work well in. The city is not designed for it. Our daily lives are not designed for it. It's not historically ingrained in us. Yes, a commuter train could be built here, and maybe 1% of the population will use it, but at a huge, huge cost that will never be recovered. That money, instead, should be used to actually fix the root of the problem...if it should be used at all.
I would like to see fewer cars & trucks on the streets & freeways too. I just don't think it should be the obligation of every taxpayer to subsidize more trains & more buses. You can nickel and dime people only so much to where it amounts to more than just a few cents on the dollar. Besides, look at how much were taxed for other things in addition to these transportation projects.
The really bad part about trusting the government to fund transportation amenities is they almost always fall short on funding, and then the projects either end up getting delayed, and/or costing much more than the initial plans. The best solution is to privatize most of these projects and let corporations or investors take over. More than likely, they could lay roads & train tracks much faster & at a lower cost than what any government agency could. It may not be a perfect solution, but it's better than continuously tossing our tax money in a huge black hole!
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