Going Big with Film (50mm, lens, processing, photoshop)

[Nomadicus]

One addition to the Going Big method of non traditional image making.

I've seen both murals made by the process made into granite for foyer floors as well as walls on marble.
One display was had colored using Marshall's oils if memory serves me correctly. The 22nd of this month they will be close to home at the ISA show at the Orange County Convention Center in Orlando, FL. It's time for a day of fun collecting some new reading materials. If still there, there is a business not to far from me that does custom engraving using this technology and uses the images that you make. All they do is the work. You are in control as much as they are. This equipment is on the expensive side so I think it is best to at least start in this direction having work outsourced in the beginning. This show will feature small to large. I've seen point and shoot cameras to the large field trucks for bill boards here.

Epson will be here too. Epson America, Inc. (booth #1547)

Epson will be showcasing not only sign making printers but also professional photo graphic printers starting with the 17" 4900 according to what I read on the ISA page. If you want to see a big printer they will have models that print a billboard in a single sheet. It's a photographic market.

If I want to see more of the laser engraving systems they will be back in April for a home show I believe in the same building. Gives me time to think up more questions for them.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by oberon_1

From experience, 5x7 in small packs are mostly unavailable. Its also important what emulsions you use.

A quick search on eBay demonstrates that is not the case. A search with Google or just use the links that Nomadicus provided will also demonstrate the availability of various common films in 5x7 sheet sizes.

Originally Posted by oberon_1

These flatbed Epson scanners aren't designed to take negatives above 4x5. And they are not true film scanners. Film scanners differ from paper scanners. Check the differences with smaller formats.
If you limit yourself to contact printing, you are correct. Enlargements on the other hand, are a different story. (See above)

Not at all true. First, the V750 comes with a fluid mount accessory (and a different coating on the glass), but the V700 is otherwise the same. They do in fact have adapters for 4x5 down to 35mm film sizes. They don't need an 8x10 adapter, because an 8x10 sheet film holder is built in..

Dedicated film scanners certainly have advantages over lesser flatbed scanners from years past, but these two models were clearly designed to be as good as anything. Keep in mind too that they can scan with 6400 DPI optical resolution and a Dmax of 4.0. A drum scanner shines when 35mm film is scanned for prints at 24x30, because it requires greater than 8000 DPI. But as I pointed out previously, 2160 DPI is sufficient for a 4x5... and at 8x10 even less is needed!

The bigger the film size, the more appropriate the Epson flatbed scanners are!

Originally Posted by oberon_1

I am not sure I understand. Epson makes the V700 series scanners, which are defined as "all purpose" (unlike dedicated film scanners) and which with special care may allow scanning 4x5 negatives. There is nothing available (except on the second hand market) that takes 5x7 or 8x10 film and if there is, prices and bulk are astronomical. (i.e Cezanne)

In the case of 8x10, that is abjectly untrue. Even the V700 will easily do a good job on 8x10's, though the V750 with the fluid mount would be ideal for a perfectionist.

The lack of 5x7 facilities is of no significance. If it were really wanted, it appears to me that fabricating a holder would be easy. But between 4x5 and 8x10 functionality, there just is no reason to be concerned about 5x7.

Originally Posted by oberon_1

That is correct and that's one point that I made in my answer. The 8x10 format can be contact printed or outsourced for scanning with matching prices.

But suggesting it is the only option is not accurate, or even close.

I have restored the full original context of your next comment:

Originally Posted by oberon_1

Not really. In the past there was a lot of merchandise on the market, including papers, scanners, and enlargers. Companies competed. The only advantage today is that you can buy a used Sinar (for example) at a fraction of the original price. However, these studio beasts are hardly suitable for field work.

Your comment, in context, has nothing to do with the quoted statement, which was about whether needing a tripod is an unacceptable inconvenience that makes LF photography untenable. That is close to absurd...

Regardless of the context, the comment itself is equally absurd! The "only advantage today" is that all of those great field cameras (and the studio cameras too) are available for peanuts because most work has gone digital. For an enthusiast wanting to work with LF film for pleasure, that is a real boon! And of course those old sturdy tripods (the Majestic brand mentioned is a great example) are also available at bargain prices.

Originally Posted by oberon_1

Again, you are correct about the bulk of huge DSLR telephoto lenses, but than you are not limited in the number of shots you can take as in the case of a LF camera.

So? There is no relationship between the bulk of the equipment and the number of exposures possible.

DSLR cameras are designed for high speed and multiple exposures. If that is what is most important, that is what should be used. Large Format is designed to get great detail, and if that is what is most important...

Originally Posted by oberon_1

Summary - yes, it can still be done, if you insist. But remember - scanning and digital printing are extremely expensive (color cartridges, high quality paper). Using a DSLR is friendlier but again, if you consider Medium Format Digital, its an arm and a leg...

Why do you make up invalid comparisons? High quality scanning is hardly expensive today. Digital printing is no more or less expensive for any given format. Why would you claim a DSLR is friendlier (an absurd statement). Your comment about MF digital might well be true, but it has nothing at all to do with this discussion.

Not wanting to work with any particular area in photography is fine, but this type of denigrating something others have an interest in and you don't, with repeated false or unrelated comparisons, is just plain strange...

[Nomadicus]

I'm posting this morning as I go. I'll try and get the most out of the next 90 minutes. Forgive me for not being a good technical writer as I might tend to seemingly ramble. I do that some times. Just mark it up to wear and tear on the gray matter. That 3 score and 10 will be here before I know it.

The Epson fluid mount for 8x10 can be seen here
Got to more images and then the last image is the picture of it.

Scanner Oils for the Epson 750 fluid mount Just one source for the needed supplies for the Epson 750. "Be all you can be" when scanning what you have put a lot of effort into.

Tempting eye candy. I love sites like this. Make my heart speed up a bit.

A site to find links for a lot of large format photographers. This page has had it's live updates by individuals shut down due to spam and that is sad as the updating is not current.

This is a non profit site for sharing of information
There is a lot of good educational material here.

I've followed this photographers writings for several years now. He has donated much of his personal time to the benefit of educating others in large format without payment.

My favorite film. Hands down the sharpest film on the market IMHO. I just wished it was available in the USA like it is in other markets in more sheet sizes but with a 5x7 Canham camera and his roll film adapter its a panorama makers dream. While it says color it is a very fine way to make B&W prints without the grain of some B&W films. How. Photoshop will process it into B&W in several ways. Some photographers have admitted to cheating and dropping the R & G channels and printing just the blue which will be to the eye B&W. A very sharp B&W. This image was taken with Astia by yours truly. One of my first. Sorry no expose recorded.
I hate to take notes and write.

One place I hope to return to with at least the 4x5 is here. This was taken Father's Day in 2003. I hiked Waldo's Canyon near Colorado Springs, CO with my oldest son. I want a "Gone Big" canvas print for myself. Not sure the film type anymore but it was scanned by a box store and the scan left much to be desired. At the time all I had to work with was a Canon Elan. The scanned images I got and the malfunction of the camera producing some strange rainbow effects most likely for moisture in the system drove me to a Canon 10D. I wanted to know the quality of the images before I got back home. I do not regret going to digital for some things. You'll never see me trying to capture this with a large format. When you plan the shoot you have time to pick the right tool for the right job and my Canon 1D MII was the right tool in this instance. Don't think I haven't thought about capturing fast action on a large sheet of film though.

Now for a little back tracking as promised.
This tool. I've had a demo and I like what I saw. After you have spent some time composing and focusing on your subject with large format you can shoot using the numbers given by the film manufacturer or be the perfectionist if those genes run in you veins.. My dad is responsible for mine. This is a light measuring computer that fits in your had. It is programmed so that at a push of the button you can have a very some very close exposure numbers that you need to save a lot of money bracketing using $10 a sheet film. And I'm referring here to all emulsions. Not just B&W & color negative but also positive. All are used to "Paint with light" and require proper exposures that we the photographers need to use. It has a feature that allows you to take light readings from key areas that you have in you ground glass image and at the click of a button it will average those reading and wallah, your 8x10 or what ever size wooden box has just gone almost auto exposure. This is what is built into some older smaller film cameras as well as current flagship digitals. Still trial and error is going to be the best teacher here. It will be up to the photographer to choose the import areas of detail to measure the light on.

Another tool. This tool is used for final critical focusing. You need one of these and good glasses in my case or some very good eyes to make the image come into focus. A poorly focus image will never be a good print. A just close focused effort may may a decent contact print. If you are going to go big for a fine art product then it will take some effort using the cameras bellows tweaking to get that last bit of sharpness visible on the ground glass back.

So you've taken the image, scanned the film, ran the digital darkroom process gamut or in some case a gauntlet, and have your own printer staring at you. Now for a decision of what media are you going to use for the print. So many options so little time. I've use quite a few rolls of their media as well as media purchased here and here too. DTG is not far away and I've let myself get caught short on ink or media and made the trip if they had is stock the media or ink I needed and it was most unusual for them not to be in stock. Normally all these suppliers shipped very promptly. One media I have not used yet is the "Cling" stuff. I've seen it at trade shows and it is a cool thing for some applications especially if you have a client "read kid" possibility here. A photo can be printed on it and just stick it to a smooth surface. No stretching, framing, etc. Make for good temp signage with photos for commercial applications.

My time is about up so I'll be back later.

[Nomadicus]

Just for the record, I lied. The really best is yet to come.

[Nomadicus]

White film handling gloves. BHPhotovideo.com has them.

Good light proof film holders. Most all major camera business have them in Toyo and Fidelity. B&H, Badger, Midwest, etc

Supplies for finishing the job including stretcher bars for gallery wraps and/or acid archival foam core for adhering fine are paper or canvas prints on. Lot's of other art supply stores out there with same materials. At the ISA show there will be a vendor that I need to make contact with after losing the bookmark. They manufacture heavy foam core in sheets up to 5' x 12'. I'm not stretching a canvas that size. For smaller canvas or fine are cotton rag prints "Tempered Masonite" can be used. I'd want to Gesso it before adhering a print though. Acid barriers are important.

Just one of many good products for eye popping 24x60 prints. Think 4x5 box with this adapter and roll film. or for a full sharp 24x72 this roll film back is a little more manual but works. Not needing a battery can be a good thing. Most fine art cotton rag papers can be coated and displayed without the need for using glass. Same coatings as used on canvas. Breathing color sells a great water based product that want mess up your lungs. The same coating can be used as an adhesive that will help protect your work from acids. Gesso is still important for me unless mounting smaller 32x40 or 24x40 prints on archival grade foam core.

A tidbit about canvas to reproduce art on or your own photography. Artists like this canvas to paint fine art portraits on (At least the ones that I know personally do) and this is the same canvas designed for large format printing.


So which direction am I personally headed. Here.. Why? Snow covered mountains just call my name for wall size murals kiln fired into glass. This camera has the most options. It can be sized down on the back side for those roll film holders or capture 2 panoramas per sheet of film. When traveling I'd most likely put a dedicated 6x12 roll film holder on the back of my 4x5 for some scenes where that is all that is needed and take both full 8x10's and 4x10 half frames. 8 good shots a day is a good day. Coming in from the cold of taking as many as 2,000 action photos a day that is the speed I'm looking forward to get back to. I'll trade all the types of photos I've taken and that is a lot for even just one good fine art photo a day. 5 good photos a week is a good weeks work with an 8x10. It is just time for a slower pace of enjoying what I, as a lot of other professional photographers around this planet we live on, like to do.

Look in this thread and tell me how much a large format camera loaded with fine grain film wouldn't speed up a heart beat. Just the thought gives me an adrenalin rush.

Now for the die hard B&W shooter, I'd choose this possibly for 24x60 prints using a 6x12 back. It can be processed in a hand tank, dried and scanned all from home. I'd rather I think use the blue channel only of Astia or from Kodak's Ektar ISO 100 color negative film. Just my thoughts. I really had rather be shooting another roll or two while waiting on a supporting pro to develop my film. I'll let them be the master of their trade. We need each other.

I'm going to leave you to night with this. Large format is not for the impatient. After hearing a friend and internationally famous photographer describe how he took a certain very large B&W shot I asked him how he got the conditions to use a 6 minute exposure. Simple. Three years of waiting. Three trips back to the spot. That as they say came straight from the horse's mouth. Patience is a virtue. I'm working on mine. It helps to dig out the book with his photos and study and dream every so often. To be continued sometime tomorrow. Early morning duty has called. Well it is early morning here. Good night. Be good.

[Azkadellia]

Originally Posted by Nomadicus

Look in this thread and tell me how much a large format camera loaded with fine grain film wouldn't speed up a heart beat. Just the thought gives me an adrenalin rush.

I'd give my eye teeth to try large format once, but there is NO ONE around here who uses it, so no chance of 'pairing up to learn hands on' from someone who does.This thread has me hooked, I'd love to try it. I can only imagine what those shots of my PNW trip would look like done in large format film. The possibilities are endless. Makes my pulse kick up a notch or two just thinking how my shot of Christine Falls would look in large format.... It would probably make me put the 5D aside, and never shoot a landscape scene with digital again.

Film is dead? Meh. I don't think so. Its out there, in all its wonderful formats, to be used and enjoyed.

[Wayneb]

I gave away my 4"x5" outfit last year, large format cameras are great when you want to spend the time to plan out your shots. I have the Epson V700, you can find fluid mounts for it if you search the web, the V700 works pretty well for 4"x5" film but is not so great for 35mm. If you want really large panoramas with out the extra work of dealing with film you can get a GigaPan. GigaPan EPIC Pro Robotic Camera Mount EPIC PRO B&H Photo Video

I used Jobo drums to develope 4"x5" film, it isn't really that hard to process your own film.

[Nomadicus]

Nice tool. I've made some in similar methods. For now I'm sticking with traditional large format film. The problem I had stitch was with subjects that had some movements such has ships coming into the harbor. Or a flag blowing in the breeze. No I have seen this technique used to make some very large format images of stationary objects such as rock formations. I don't think I would want to make large format images with long exposures with changing light. There are variables with everything we do. I personally like to know when I fire that shutter I'm done until I reload for the next shot. It just might be a step in the right direction for a lot of people. I too have looked at indexing tripod heads for the job. The limit of them though seems to be the vertical height limits of the final print. I'll return later in the day. Thanks for the input.

[Nomadicus]

Here is a demonstration of what an image looks like under the darkcloth. As you can see the image is upside down and flipped left to right. This image was shot on Fugi Astia and printed on canvas at 40x50 inches. I've got an experiment to do tomorrow time and weather permitting. It may or may not work but I'm going to do it just to see if I can. Now about the best is yet to come. Well that is up to those who shoot 6x12 or larger film. Yes seeing some good stuff in this thread that photographers go out of their way to capture on film will be welcome. Please don't try and turn this thread into a "here's a way to cheat and work around". That's not the topic. There should be a thread devoted to that subject and if some one will start it I've got links and the ways and means and will be glad to share. For now here is a photo I just took of my monitor and the Astia positive that produced a large format print.

[Nomadicus]

Finally the ISA (Candy Store) came to town. I didn't take my camera in but rather had my wife do some documentary stuff with her P&S. We left without seeing about 25% of the show because of time restraints. I did get a lot of questions answered as to what model is best for me and what not to expect in the future. Through the grapevine, don't expect anything to replace the Epson 7900 or 9900 anytime soon. Epson is focusing on solvent ink outdoor printers at the time being. I did see the newest Epson 9890 but it lacks the orange and green ink of the 7900 & 9900 models and the color gamut those two models produce. I was allowed to touch and almost drool on the Epson 11880 64" model.

I had a chance to air my displeasure with Fuji for not selling all the sheet films they make in the USA. They sell enough but there is more and I don't like the short end of the stick. I did learn Fuji is selling Epson printers. I also confirmed what I already knew is that Epson makes print heads for a lot of other brand name printers. Then each mfg specs out there own ink depending on the purpose of printer they are making.

I did pickup enough reading materials for a lot of rainy days. Within the next couple of days I'll post some of the show photos that were taken. I did see a log of product photography that would have been taken using large format cameras base on the size of the print and the complete focus of say a car from front to back taken at a 1/4 angle from the front. Bellows movements take care of the job. For now I'm going to take a breather. It's been a long day.