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Old 08-06-2009, 05:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar View Post
I'm not sure I understand the question. A black hole develops when a star's core collapses under its own weight because it can no longer support its own mass. In effect, it becomes an extreme gravity well strong enough to warp space and time around it which causes an effect known as gravitational lensing.

As for the universe, if it collapses in on itself, as in the Big Crunch, I guess that would make it the Ultimate Black Hole.
Well, if one seperates the Universe into matter/energy and "space" (areas deviod of matter/energy), and if such an immense black hole simply cannot substain itself and exploded (exploding black hole theory), that woudl explain the apperent movement and radiation signatures that led to the formualtion of the BB Theory in the first place, yes?
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Old 08-06-2009, 08:02 PM
 
5,462 posts, read 9,631,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMundi View Post
Well, if one seperates the Universe into matter/energy and "space" (areas deviod of matter/energy), and if such an immense black hole simply cannot substain itself and exploded (exploding black hole theory), that woudl explain the apperent movement and radiation signatures that led to the formualtion of the BB Theory in the first place, yes?

The thing about the space of the universe is that it really doesn't appear to have any true voids. There's something that occupies it everywhere, be it matter or energy. Keep in mind that the space of the universe isn't really a thing. It's defined by the dimensions of it. The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation is a perfect example of that. No matter where you look in the sky, that radiation is everywhere. It only varies with degrees of intensity. There are what are called voids in the universe which are areas located between the filiments of the universe, but even the voids have some galaxies in them, albeit not many.

You could get better information about black holes from someone like Stephen Hawking. But I'll try to explain a little of my understanding about these things.

As you know, black holes are surrounded by an event horizon which marks the point of no return. Long before any matter of any kind reaches the event horizon, the matter becomes superheated. That assumes the black hole is located in an area where there is matter such as stars, gasses, dust, planets, atoms, etc. Once this stuff is caught by the black hole's gravitational field all this stuff becomes superheated and completely surrounds the black hole. All that can be seen of a black hole is the bright field of matter being ripped apart and burned up at tremendous speeds. Black holes seem to show a tremendous speed of rotation, but what we are looking at is the matter rotating around it. We can't actually see the black hole itself.

As all this stuff enters the event horizon (the real point of no return) matter gives off a tremendous burst of energy as sort of a last final scream. Some things might not release an energy burst, such as photons. But once inside, it's said that nothing can escape the black hole, not even light (photons).

However, black holes do show powerful jets of radiation streaming out from it. That's probably from the particles being drawn in. Black holes also seem to have sudden bursts of energy at times. It's been thought that if too much stuff is pulled in, the black hole sort of gets explosive indigestion and burps out a blast of radiation.

There might be black holes that are rogues, drifting around in space, that are invisible, because they are in regions where there is little matter to be consumed. However, it's possible to detect a rogue black hole because you'd see the effect of gravitational lensing surrounding it.

What you're talking about with regards to "exploding black holes" is probably in reference to black holes which are tiny specks. These are the things that the LHC is hoping to catch a glimpse of. But these things are different than the monsters in space. They're so small that they vanish almost instantly because they can't survive the evaporation of the Hawking radiation. Large black holes do survive it. But the tiny ones vanish in a quick burst (explosion). It's thought these little things may become tightly wrapped around the structure of the 5th dimension. The 5th dimension probably works at a scale of about one billionth of a nanometer. Pretty tiny stuff. Of course, it's just theoretical. It gets tighter and tighter until it snaps, and it's game over for the little fella.

Keep in mind that all this happens at an incredibly brief period of time, like in the billionths of a nanosecond. The explosion is an emission of a radio frequency. What would be seen of these little black holes are the particle trails cast off by the explosion. If it happens it will show that these micro black holes exist, and it may point to the existence of extra dimensions. So far, all we really know about are 4 dimension. String theory requires at least 10 dimensions, but we won't be able to detect that many. We'll be lucky if just the 5th dimension can be confirmed.

What you're wondering about are massive or supermassive black holes that could explode. They don't work the same way as the micro black holes. The massive ones have survived the evaporation of Hawking radiation. The micro ones don't because they're too small.

Again, the larger black holes are extreme gravity wells that have consumed everything from the original star and anything else that's in range of it. I could be wrong, but I don't see how they could explode. It's essentially like asking if gravity can explode.

I hope I got some of that somewhat close to right.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:18 PM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,084 posts, read 14,855,038 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post

Well, for starters, those holding to the view of an infinite universe would need to explain some way around the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

Also, one would want to strongly consider what sort of infinite things are actually observable - as far as I know, none are.
Dang, thermodynamics has to do with the amount of energy given off by heat, it has nothing to do with the infiniteness of the universe.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:35 PM
 
4,474 posts, read 5,411,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar View Post
The thing about the space of the universe is that it really doesn't appear to have any true voids. There's something that occupies it everywhere, be it matter or energy. Keep in mind that the space of the universe isn't really a thing. It's defined by the dimensions of it. The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation is a perfect example of that. No matter where you look in the sky, that radiation is everywhere. It only varies with degrees of intensity. There are what are called voids in the universe which are areas located between the filiments of the universe, but even the voids have some galaxies in them, albeit not many.

You could get better information about black holes from someone like Stephen Hawking. But I'll try to explain a little of my understanding about these things.

As you know, black holes are surrounded by an event horizon which marks the point of no return. Long before any matter of any kind reaches the event horizon, the matter becomes superheated. That assumes the black hole is located in an area where there is matter such as stars, gasses, dust, planets, atoms, etc. Once this stuff is caught by the black hole's gravitational field all this stuff becomes superheated and completely surrounds the black hole. All that can be seen of a black hole is the bright field of matter being ripped apart and burned up at tremendous speeds. Black holes seem to show a tremendous speed of rotation, but what we are looking at is the matter rotating around it. We can't actually see the black hole itself.

As all this stuff enters the event horizon (the real point of no return) matter gives off a tremendous burst of energy as sort of a last final scream. Some things might not release an energy burst, such as photons. But once inside, it's said that nothing can escape the black hole, not even light (photons).

However, black holes do show powerful jets of radiation streaming out from it. That's probably from the particles being drawn in. Black holes also seem to have sudden bursts of energy at times. It's been thought that if too much stuff is pulled in, the black hole sort of gets explosive indigestion and burps out a blast of radiation.

There might be black holes that are rogues, drifting around in space, that are invisible, because they are in regions where there is little matter to be consumed. However, it's possible to detect a rogue black hole because you'd see the effect of gravitational lensing surrounding it.

What you're talking about with regards to "exploding black holes" is probably in reference to black holes which are tiny specks. These are the things that the LHC is hoping to catch a glimpse of. But these things are different than the monsters in space. They're so small that they vanish almost instantly because they can't survive the evaporation of the Hawking radiation. Large black holes do survive it. But the tiny ones vanish in a quick burst (explosion). It's thought these little things may become tightly wrapped around the structure of the 5th dimension. The 5th dimension probably works at a scale of about one billionth of a nanometer. Pretty tiny stuff. Of course, it's just theoretical. It gets tighter and tighter until it snaps, and it's game over for the little fella.

Keep in mind that all this happens at an incredibly brief period of time, like in the billionths of a nanosecond. The explosion is an emission of a radio frequency. What would be seen of these little black holes are the particle trails cast off by the explosion. If it happens it will show that these micro black holes exist, and it may point to the existence of extra dimensions. So far, all we really know about are 4 dimension. String theory requires at least 10 dimensions, but we won't be able to detect that many. We'll be lucky if just the 5th dimension can be confirmed.

What you're wondering about are massive or supermassive black holes that could explode. They don't work the same way as the micro black holes. The massive ones have survived the evaporation of Hawking radiation. The micro ones don't because they're too small.

Again, the larger black holes are extreme gravity wells that have consumed everything from the original star and anything else that's in range of it. I could be wrong, but I don't see how they could explode. It's essentially like asking if gravity can explode.

I hope I got some of that somewhat close to right.
To the last sentance above... Dont' ask me, I only have a "working layman's knowledge" of cosmotology, I certainly claim no expertise in this area, not one of my areas of heavy research.

In the "Hawkins Evaporation Theory", he shows, basically, a self destruction of black holes. However, do they just go "pfft" and disappear, or do they throw matter/energy out into space.

And by "void" I mean deviod of large amounts of matter/energy leek one finds within a galxy. The "space" between galaxies, for example.
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Old 08-06-2009, 10:21 PM
 
5,462 posts, read 9,631,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMundi View Post
To the last sentance above... Dont' ask me, I only have a "working layman's knowledge" of cosmotology, I certainly claim no expertise in this area, not one of my areas of heavy research.

In the "Hawkins Evaporation Theory", he shows, basically, a self destruction of black holes. However, do they just go "pfft" and disappear, or do they throw matter/energy out into space.

And by "void" I mean deviod of large amounts of matter/energy leek one finds within a galxy. The "space" between galaxies, for example.

There are voids in the universe. Some very large ones too. Generally voids are the areas between the filaments of galactic clusters. There's not much in voids, but they do contain a few galaxies. Just because it's fairly empty, doesn't mean it's a location where matter and energy leak out of the universe. It just means that it isn't crowded with stuff.

The Boötes Superclusters

Universe in a box: formation of large-scale structure

SDSS Galaxy Map



An amazing computer simulation showing the filaments of the universe.
Made by the Virgo Consortium, an international group of astrophysicists
from Germany, the U.K., Canada, Japan, and the U.S.A.
It's worth seeing at YouTube in HD FUll Screen.
Enjoy!


YouTube - Millennium Simulation: "The Largest Model of Our Universe"
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Old 08-06-2009, 10:49 PM
 
4,474 posts, read 5,411,259 times
Reputation: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar View Post
There are voids in the universe. Some very large ones too. Generally voids are the areas between the filaments of galactic clusters. There's not much in voids, but they do contain a few galaxies. Just because it's fairly empty, doesn't mean it's a location where matter and energy leak out of the universe. It just means that it isn't crowded with stuff.

The Boötes Superclusters

Universe in a box: formation of large-scale structure

SDSS Galaxy Map



An amazing computer simulation showing the filaments of the universe.
Made by the Virgo Consortium, an international group of astrophysicists
from Germany, the U.K., Canada, Japan, and the U.S.A.
It's worth seeing at YouTube in HD FUll Screen.
Enjoy!


YouTube - Millennium Simulation: "The Largest Model of Our Universe"
Um, are we on the same page?

Just to reiterate, I am postulating and proposing that the universe always has been, and always will be.

Not the Steady State theory, mind you.

I am thinking that the BB is a cyclic event that has occured time and time again.

When it occurs, it throws matter/energy out into space/void/whichever, renewing matter and energy in a never ending cycle.

And that when momentum disappates, that a large gravity source of some kind or another pulls all matter/energy back towards the center, which starts the BB cycle over again.
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:56 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 9,631,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMundi View Post
Um, are we on the same page?

Just to reiterate, I am postulating and proposing that the universe always has been, and always will be.

Not the Steady State theory, mind you.

I am thinking that the BB is a cyclic event that has occured time and time again.

When it occurs, it throws matter/energy out into space/void/whichever, renewing matter and energy in a never ending cycle.

And that when momentum disappates, that a large gravity source of some kind or another pulls all matter/energy back towards the center, which starts the BB cycle over again.

Okay, I must've missed where you proposed the universe has always been and will always be. By cyclic, I assume you mean sort of a Big Bounce -continual cycles of expanding and contracting. Sure, I know about that kind of view. I'm also assuming by "void", that you mean some kind of space outside of the universe - a hyperspace. I already touched on several possibilities: strings at the Planck scale, multiverses, and a megaverse. All these theories would probably contain some form of hyperspace, although it may vary.

You mentioned earlier: "Well, if one seperates the Universe into matter/energy and "space" (areas deviod of matter/energy), and if such an immense black hole simply cannot substain itself and exploded (exploding black hole theory), that woudl explain the apperent movement and radiation signatures that led to the formualtion of the BB Theory in the first place, yes?" So do you think the universe is similar to some kind of gigantic exploding black hole? The problem is that black holes (as explained) don't explode (or expand), they are gravity wells with a one-way trip.

That wouldn't rule out the possibility that the universe might expand to a certain point, and if dark energy dissipates or weaken (which doesn't seem to be the case), then gravity may become the strong force causing the universe to collapse in on itself. However, it appears just the opposite is happening.

So does the universe only collapse in to a certain point then expand again like blowing up a balloon and letting the air out over and over again with the same balloon? Or does the universe collapse and blend in to the environment or conditions that enabled a universe to form in the first place? I would be inclined to go along with the latter, but once our universe is absorbed into the quantum foam, it's game over and this universe would never expand again. It's a one time thing for each universe. Instead, new universes would rise up elsewhere in the quantum foam. There may be an infinite number of kinds of universes popping up like that all the time. Some may be similar to ours. Some may be very different, with a different set of physics. Some may start but fail almost immediately. There's a wide variety of possibilities, but none of those universes would be the same as ours.

Imagine the bubbles of foam in the sea. Every one of those bubble will pop sooner or later. When a single bubble is gone, there will be others to replace it, but that individual bubble will never reform itself. It's gone forever back into the sea water where it came from.

While I can't say the Big Bounce theory is impossible, I can say there's no indication of it. Unless something different turns up to point to other possibilities, I'm inclined to think the universe will probably continue to expand until it blends in with the source of its origins in about one google years from now. Nothing to get too excited about. The only reason I think it's likely is because what is known at the present time seems to indicate that's what's happening. The galaxies that are the farthest out are moving away at incredible speeds faster than anything that's closer to us.

It's also possible the Big Bang may have been the result of colliding branes, which also fits in with the String theory.

On the more exotic side, the universe might be fractal (like the Megaverse concept), it could be a hologram, or some kind of artificial program (sort of a variation on the Intelligent Design concept), or it could all be just an illusion. As nutty as they sound, there are certain observations that make each one possible.

In the end though, no one has any real idea of what will happen. It's all just theory. At the very least, the video gives an idea that the universe isn't some kind of big ball dotted with galaxies spread out nice and even. It's more like a big web scattered all over the place but linked together by galactic filaments, or like the neural network of the human brain. Is our brain a reflection of the shape of universe?
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:38 PM
 
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All jsut theory indeed, which is why I'm trying to slog through my idea that the BB is merely a ciyclic event.

Do we REALLY know what would happen with a uber-huge (official nasa langauge there) black hole? Could the gravitational pull become to intense that it reaches a plasma-like state and cannot substain ti's on mass and explodes?

For that matter, what could cause all matter/energy to come together and return to it's point of origin?
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Old 08-07-2009, 04:09 PM
 
5,462 posts, read 9,631,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMundi View Post
All jsut theory indeed, which is why I'm trying to slog through my idea that the BB is merely a ciyclic event.

Do we REALLY know what would happen with a uber-huge (official nasa langauge there) black hole? Could the gravitational pull become to intense that it reaches a plasma-like state and cannot substain ti's on mass and explodes?

For that matter, what could cause all matter/energy to come together and return to it's point of origin?

Gravity is only a force. Particles are what have positive or negative charges. Think in terms of lightning. What you see is the glow of plasma from highly charged ions. The problem with gravity is that as a force in the universe it appears to be weak.

You pose a question: "...what could cause all matter/energy to come together and return to it's point of origin?" Do you mean why would matter and energy all come together in a Big Crunch?
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Old 08-07-2009, 05:26 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes View Post
Dang, thermodynamics has to do with the amount of energy given off by heat, it has nothing to do with the infiniteness of the universe.


No, thermodynamics has to do with the movement/release of heat to the surrounding environment. Given enough time, millions or perhaps billions of years, the temperature of the universe must become constant in line with it's reduced temperature surroundings to approximately 3 degrees above absolute zero. The universe will ultimately, according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, die.

If you take the time to familiarize yourself with this topic, you will find that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is established/settled science.
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