Cities like Pittsburgh (Beaver Falls, California, Beaver: high school, pierogies, quality of life)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by bradjl2009

I can't really speak for how immigration used to be but when immigrants from Europe came here 100 years ago during the last major wave, they didn't all speak one language, they all came from different countries and speak different languages so there was a definite need to assimilate and learn English.

In the first generation, European immigrants did in fact tend to cluster into certain areas by country of origin, and in those areas you would see lots of signs in the native language, publications in the native language, schools using the native language for instruction, church services in the native language, and so on.

To take your example, there was a HUGE wave of German immigration to the United States from the mid-19th Century to around WWI, much of which was concentrated in the broader Midwest region (including Pittsburgh). German immigrants as a result made up a very substantial percentage of the population in various cities (Cleveland, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, and so forth). As you noted, they set up German schools, German publications, conducted lots of business in German, and so on.

But as always in the U.S., by the third generation German-Americans were all English-speakers. You are right that when WWI and WWII came along, German-Americans deliberately wiped out a lot of their distinguishing traditions and institutions. But assimilation was happening anyway among their children and grandchildren.

That makes it easier to get by probably because there is a larger amount of people speaking your language. Companies have realized that most immigrants are from Spanish and just like in Canada, many labels are now bilingual which may give the impression they don't need to learn the new language because people will appeal to their needs.

None of that wipes out the incentive for subsequent generations to adopt English in order to maximize their opportunities, and that is exactly what is happening. In fact, to use the same market logic, one of the fastest-growing segments in publishing is English-language publications designed for people with Latino backgrounds. The reason they need to be English-language is that we are now well into the second and third generations, and at that point Latino-Americans prefer English to Spanish (to the point many don't even speak Spanish).

Canada is a different case because French is historically rooted and legally protected in Quebec. And even in Quebec, French is gradually dying out. Mass bilingualism just can't be sustained in the face of the economic pressures to share a common language within a given nation.

Also, in Mexico the schools teach that the USA unfairly stole the SW from them so that could explain some of the views of people down there

This may be true, but I always think it is important to keep in mind that immigrants are a self-selected group, meaning they are not randomly drawn from their native country's population. The immigrants we get from Mexico, or anywhere else, are those who want to be here, and they tend to also very much want to be citizens.

In fact many of the Muslim immigrants in Europe are OK but their children are being radicalized against the system they were raised in.

Europe has historically done a much worse job assimilating immigrants than the United States. Part of that is just because there is much more of a sense among many Europeans that their country is also an ethnicity (in the U.S., there is only a small number of people who view "American" as an ethnicity). So many Europeans tend to treat immigrants who are not of the relevant ethnicity as "foreign" regardless of legal status, and that does indeed lead to alienation and conflict when it comes to subsequent generations.

I personally like our demographics, it gives an extra European flair to a place many feel has some European looks.

I don't necessarily think we need to have the same immigration patterns as the rest of the United States. But I do think it is worth noting that without being refreshed, that European flair is going to continue to diminish over time.

And again, the bottomline is that is very unlikely we can have sustained population growth without an increasing share of foreign born.

[bradjl2009]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

In the first generation, European immigrants did in fact tend to cluster into certain areas by country of origin, and in those areas you would see lots of signs in the native language, publications in the native language, schools using the native language for instruction, church services in the native language, and so on.

To take your example, there was a HUGE wave of German immigration to the United States from the mid-19th Century to around WWI, much of which was concentrated in the broader Midwest region (including Pittsburgh). German immigrants as a result made up a very substantial percentage of the population in various cities (Cleveland, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, and so forth). As you noted, they set up German schools, German publications, conducted lots of business in German, and so on.

But as always in the U.S., by the third generation German-Americans were all English-speakers. You are right that when WWI and WWII came along, German-Americans deliberately wiped out a lot of their distinguishing traditions and institutions. But assimilation was happening anyway among their children and grandchildren.

That is true I did read a book in Barnes & Noble about the dying out of the German speaking community in Pittsburgh (very interesting read!) and we had a German paper right here all the way up until 1942. I would have never thought that and would have loved to read it with half of my family from Germany (if anyone is wondering they learned English quickly due to marriage with Americans).

None of that wipes out the incentive for subsequent generations to adopt English in order to maximize their opportunities, and that is exactly what is happening. In fact, to use the same market logic, one of the fastest-growing segments in publishing is English-language publications designed for people with Latino backgrounds. The reason they need to be English-language is that we are now well into the second and third generations, and at that point Latino-Americans prefer English to Spanish (to the point many don't even speak Spanish).

I agree with you on that, on my digital cable I get no foreign language stations but a few that cater to English speaking Latinos.

Canada is a different case because French is historically rooted and legally protected in Quebec. And even in Quebec, French is gradually dying out. Mass bilingualism just can't be sustained in the face of the economic pressures to share a common language within a given nation.

French isn't dying in Quebec due to the strict Charter of the French Language that forces all immigrants to take French immersion in school if they are children, all signs must have French dominant, and all businesses with 50+ employees must do all work in French.
YouTube - 60 min pt1.wmv This is somewhat dated and longer but the general ideas are still upheld in Quebec and it's an interesting video. In fact Esso (Exxon here in the states) was forced to keep its brand Mache Express in Quebec because of the Quebec laws that wouldn't let them change their name to On the Run like the rest of Canada.

I don't necessarily think we need to have the same immigration patterns as the rest of the United States. But I do think it is worth noting that without being refreshed, that European flair is going to continue to diminish over time.

And again, the bottomline is that is very unlikely we can have sustained population growth without an increasing share of foreign born.

The other thing that is holding us back is our large death rate and small birth rate but with the population that stayed getting closer to non existent populations, I expect the death rate to fall by a bit while the birth rate will probably increase as more young people realize they don't need to move away to have opportunity. With our rich European churches and clubs, I think it would be good to try to attract them especially the Eastern Europeans that could bring fresh life into the local ethnic churches.

[pman]

Originally Posted by bradjl2009

I do agree with you that no children of an immigrant would probably blatantly refuse to learn the nation's language. But it's how to not question there may be some radicalization among their children with the idea of Aztlan in the SW. Also, in Mexico the schools teach that the USA unfairly stole the SW from them so that could explain some of the views of people down there (which I agree with you are very small) In fact many of the Muslim immigrants in Europe are OK but their children are being radicalized against the system they were raised in. I personally like our demographics, it gives an extra European flair to a place many feel has some European looks.

Of course, their children will go to school here so even that should die out over time...except if Mexican immigrants are not allowed to assimilate and are kept separate as many groups in europe are. one note about muslims in my experiences back in Philly, the most radical were american born, inner city blacks converted by organizations like the nation of islam. immigrant muslims largely kept a low profile and quietly wished NOI didn't exist as more often than not, they brought the community more harm than benefit. the NOI strain is the stuff they teach in prisons.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by bradjl2009

French isn't dying in Quebec . . .

You are absolutely right, and I meant to write Canada, not Quebec there. In Canada as a whole, despite the efforts to maintain bilingualism through education, fewer and fewer people are actually retaining their French due to disuse. I'm not sure what that means for Quebec specifically.

The other thing that is holding us back is our large death rate and small birth rate but with the population that stayed getting closer to non existent populations, I expect the death rate to fall by a bit while the birth rate will probably increase as more young people realize they don't need to move away to have opportunity.

I agree we should converge on the U.S. norms as the ripples of the steel bust diaspora fade away. But that isn't going to be enough: once you take out immigrants and their children, the U.S. has a fertility rate well below the replacement rate, meaning the U.S. population would be shrinking if not for immigrants and their children.

So on a local level, if we had no foreign immigration and matched the U.S. norms for fertility/mortality, we'd still have a shrinking population. Hypothetically you could make up for that a bit with net domestic in-migration, but I don't think that is sustainable in Pittsburgh at sufficiently high levels (we might be pretty high during the recession, but I don't think it will stay that high down the road).

So that is why I think we will very likely need to see an increase in our current very low foreign-born share if we want to have a growing population. In a nutshell, U.S. population growth depends on immigrants, and there is no real reason to expect Pittsburgh to avoid the consequences.

With our rich European churches and clubs, I think it would be good to try to attract them especially the Eastern Europeans that could bring fresh life into the local ethnic churches.

I wouldn't mind seeing that happen, but of course those countries are facing their own population problems, for the same reason (low fertility rates).

Personally, I think our best bet may be South Asians--there is already a bit of a recent South Asian immigration trend here, and that is a category where you could really continue to see a steady stream of on-average high-quality immigrants for the conceivable future.

[pman]

there's also the EU. It used to be far eaier to immigrate to the US than another european country. that's no longer the case with the EU. I'd also question why eastern europeans are inherently better than mexicans. that seems like a suspect, if not racist, opinion. and certainly, educated europeans are not going to come in any great numbers. then, as now, it was the uneducated at the bottom of a relative fixed social strata that had the most to gain by immigrating.

[raynist]

Originally Posted by npa412

Is it a sad commentary on Pittsburgh's job market that there isn't even work for day laborers in Pittsburgh; I could be at the Home Depot next Saturday and yell at the top of my lungs "I will pay $40 per hour to anyone who will help me install my deck"... and no Mexican will be running at me. The things I've seen in Houston and Orlando; you walk out with 2x4s and they're set to jump into your truck.

You act like this is a bad thing?

Thank God we don't have that, I don't want to be harrassed in a parking lot at home depot. If I want someone to do work for me I will call an actual business instead of bringing potential illegals to my home.....

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by raynist

You act like this is a bad thing?

Thank God we don't have that, I don't want to be harrassed in a parking lot at home depot. If I want someone to do work for me I will call an actual business instead of bringing potential illegals to my home.....

You obviously don't live in the west or southwest. Individual shoppers aren't being "harassed" at Home Deopt. How do you find people to do work for you? We asked friends, who recommended a contractor. He hired others to help him; many were Hispanic, some didn't speak much English. He may have found these people at a Home Depot.

[fleetiebelle]

Originally Posted by Katiana

You obviously don't live in the west or southwest. Individual shoppers aren't being "harassed" at Home Deopt. How do you find people to do work for you? We asked friends, who recommended a contractor. He hired others to help him; many were Hispanic, some didn't speak much English. He may have found these people at a Home Depot.

I have a friend in Boston who talks about the day laborers up there, but they're mainly Polish, Irish, Russian, etc. People get a bug up their butts about "Mexicans", but there are undocumented workers of all stripes.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

I'd also question why eastern europeans are inherently better than mexicans. that seems like a suspect, if not racist, opinion.

I just took the poster in question to be referring to Pittsburgh's legacy of Eastern European immigration, which would be cool to reinforce with new Eastern European immigration. Taken that way, I have no particular problem with the sentiment, although I do think it is impractical to think this could be done on enough scale to meet all of our likely need for additional immigrants.

I also don't personally view that notion as exclusive with the possibility of more Latino immigration. In Pittsburgh's growth periods we always had immigration from multiple countries of origin, and so I think we could reinforce our Eastern European legacy (to the extent possible) and incorporate more Latino immigrants at the same time.

[nuwaver88]

Originally Posted by npa412

The social climate in Pittsburgh requires you to conform to the yinzer mentality or you get booted out of the neighborhood. From traveling across the country, I see Pittsburgh as being one of the last cities that has held off the non-assimilating foreign invasion. Like I said, I have no problem with foreigners, as I am one myself, but I expect any foreigner coming into the 'Burgh to grow their mullet, crack open an I'rn, root for dem Stillers, and stop by the federal building to apply for their green card.

Wow! Generalize a bit. FWIW, I read recently that 80% of foriegn born Pittsburgh residents had a college degree. That was the highest in the USA in that category. That also tells me that there are few concentrated lower to middle class urban neighborhoods of immigrants. Pittsburgh also has the highest percentage of residents from age 25-34 that hold a college degree. Pittsburgh has become an educated city with the yinzers being the minority. I mean do, you think of Texas rednecks when you think of Austin? Of course not. That does not mean that there are still none around. Should I judge that city on a demographic that is the minority? Then it is not fair to do it to Pittsburgh, which has a higher percntage of denizens with bachelors and masters degrees than Austin, which so many people hold in such high regard.