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Old 07-20-2010, 02:22 PM
 
5,802 posts, read 9,852,741 times
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I dont think that's so much true as the fact that Eastern PA is more flat and eaiser/less costly to upgrade....you have more challeging terain west of Harrisburg to Pittsburgh and there by more costly to construct as Brian stated....But that doesn't mean it can't be done with detirmination which is what is lacking in PA government....maybe when the next Gov is elected the Western part will get the attention it deserves.

PA as a whole has this massive disregard for Transportation in the state..and its a shame...even a state like NJ where its economic engines comes from 2 cities that are not even in Jersey, has shown more of a progressive additude toward transportation and making sure its residence have reliable rail and bus service to and from Philly and NYC....
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Old 07-20-2010, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 102,751,145 times
Reputation: 29967
Quote:
Originally Posted by South Range Family View Post
I can see a non-stop between Pittsburgh, and Cleveland.
I don't think it would be feasible to stop in Youngstown. Youngstown is 60 miles from both Cleveland, and the Burgh. By the time you got up to 110 mph, it would be time to start slowing down, and then you would do the exact same thing in Pittsburgh.

Factor in waiting for the train, parking, and all of that crap, most people would continue to drive the short distance that we do today.
How long do you imagine it takes a passenger train to get up to 110mph?
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Old 07-20-2010, 03:25 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
Reputation: 2910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
I think Harrisburg only cares about providing rail service to eastern Pennsylvania.
Certainly that is what their recent behavior suggests. But maybe if the feds keep the money flowing they will expand their interests. Or not, since the feds requiring matching. But maybe we will still have Ohio to look after us--or not, depending on their upcoming elections.
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Old 07-20-2010, 03:29 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
Reputation: 2910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
How long do you imagine it takes a passenger train to get up to 110mph?
Yeah, the earlier study I noted above suggested the whole deceleration/acceleration portion of the stop cycle (so minus dwell time) was adding only about 3.5 minutes total per stop. Not inconsiderable if you are doing it a bunch of times, but obviously it doesn't take all that long to get back up to speed.
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Philly
10,220 posts, read 16,734,236 times
Reputation: 2971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
I think Harrisburg only cares about providing rail service to eastern Pennsylvania.
While it's understandable that certain people might see it that way, it's not the truth of the matter. Your first tipoff should have been attributing some kind of strategic thought process to harrisburg, that's just not the way things work there. The reality is that East got funded for a number of reasons, mostly historical. The state got a lot more bang for its buck investing $72 million in that stretch as Amtrak offered to match the investment at the time (since Amtrak owned the line). Additionally, during the Depression, electrification to Pittsburgh stalled in Harrisburg, so re-electrification costs were much less. Third, the track east of harrisburg was actually in worse condition than west of with some sections at 15 mph. Lastly, there was and has been an active lobby. the original intent was to expand SEPTA service to Lancaster (SEPTA only runs electrified service). the pitt lobby largely came in the form of the mag lev. obviously neither of those last two things appears likely at this point, but they certainly factored into the equation. with regards to the current situation, basically, once Act 44 was killed officially, all transportation projects ground to a halt. PennDOT had finally established a rail office and in addition to the current Keystone west hsr study, had pushed additional service west of Harrsiburg to Altoona and Pittsburgh. Indeed, as part of the original intent, they studied four trains a day to Pitt in 2004 (actually before that since it was issued then). they just didn't like the answer ($145 million in 04 capital dollars for three more trains a day to Pitt at the same speed). On the plus side, PA has signed on in support of the OH plans even if the state has no transportation dollars. worth noting, the money to be spent on the murtha and specter libraries was worth nearly $80 million in federal match (most likely for East since West is still being studied and will likely be a much larger project). There is no rhyme or reason in Harrisburg and that's the crux of the problem.

as for NJ, it's not really surprising at all. their state's growth is based on transportation, always has been. it's long been the mid road between Philadelphia and NY, those two cities, and the beach. tolls, trains, and airports are something they get...of course, given they have the nation's highest overhead additive (60% per mile I believe) and once had the nations highest railroad property tax per mile it shouldn't be a surprise, the public sector feeds a lot of pockets with transportation dollars. NYS, OTOH, isn't much better than PA and arguably worse (they couldn't even fund Albany-NYC)

also worth noting: when Harrisburg-Pitt does finally get built, it will be the better portion of the line since Keystone East is older and much more curvy. Barring a new alignment, I'd guess Talgo tilt trains will be looked at.
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:19 PM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,380 posts, read 26,759,552 times
Reputation: 4580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212 View Post
I dont think that's so much true as the fact that Eastern PA is more flat and eaiser/less costly to upgrade....you have more challeging terain west of Harrisburg to Pittsburgh and there by more costly to construct as Brian stated....But that doesn't mean it can't be done with detirmination which is what is lacking in PA government....maybe when the next Gov is elected the Western part will get the attention it deserves.

PA as a whole has this massive disregard for Transportation in the state..and its a shame...even a state like NJ where its economic engines comes from 2 cities that are not even in Jersey, has shown more of a progressive additude toward transportation and making sure its residence have reliable rail and bus service to and from Philly and NYC....
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
While it's understandable that certain people might see it that way, it's not the truth of the matter. Your first tipoff should have been attributing some kind of strategic thought process to harrisburg, that's just not the way things work there. The reality is that East got funded for a number of reasons, mostly historical. The state got a lot more bang for its buck investing $72 million in that stretch as Amtrak offered to match the investment at the time (since Amtrak owned the line). Additionally, during the Depression, electrification to Pittsburgh stalled in Harrisburg, so re-electrification costs were much less. Third, the track east of harrisburg was actually in worse condition than west of with some sections at 15 mph. Lastly, there was and has been an active lobby. the original intent was to expand SEPTA service to Lancaster (SEPTA only runs electrified service). the pitt lobby largely came in the form of the mag lev. obviously neither of those last two things appears likely at this point, but they certainly factored into the equation. with regards to the current situation, basically, once Act 44 was killed officially, all transportation projects ground to a halt. PennDOT had finally established a rail office and in addition to the current Keystone west hsr study, had pushed additional service west of Harrsiburg to Altoona and Pittsburgh. Indeed, as part of the original intent, they studied four trains a day to Pitt in 2004 (actually before that since it was issued then). they just didn't like the answer ($145 million in 04 capital dollars for three more trains a day to Pitt at the same speed). On the plus side, PA has signed on in support of the OH plans even if the state has no transportation dollars. worth noting, the money to be spent on the murtha and specter libraries was worth nearly $80 million in federal match (most likely for East since West is still being studied and will likely be a much larger project). There is no rhyme or reason in Harrisburg and that's the crux of the problem.

as for NJ, it's not really surprising at all. their state's growth is based on transportation, always has been. it's long been the mid road between Philadelphia and NY, those two cities, and the beach. tolls, trains, and airports are something they get...of course, given they have the nation's highest overhead additive (60% per mile I believe) and once had the nations highest railroad property tax per mile it shouldn't be a surprise, the public sector feeds a lot of pockets with transportation dollars. NYS, OTOH, isn't much better than PA and arguably worse (they couldn't even fund Albany-NYC)

also worth noting: when Harrisburg-Pitt does finally get built, it will be the better portion of the line since Keystone East is older and much more curvy. Barring a new alignment, I'd guess Talgo tilt trains will be looked at.
PA is starting to lag a bit. I have noticed the past few months. They lost funding on researching a few corridors in East and West PA and other things have happen. I totaled all the PA Projects up and over the next 2 decades , PA will add or restore between 500 - 2000 miles of Rail corridors. Compared to my state which plans on doing 700-1500 miles over the next decade. Thats just the Regional Rail , when you add the Light Rail and Urban Rail its pushed 1800 miles. My state is restoring 2 Rail lines that would extend into PA. PA has lagged on there part so where not building into PA. 2 key lines ruined thanks to lack of Govt push.........PA is falling behind in the 2030 Rail Restoration Race , even Virgina and Connecticut have overtaken you guys......Harrisburg should push for more Rail , its at the JCT of 4 lines 3 Restorations. Pittsburgh is at the JCT of 3 lines. Actually Every PA , NJ , CT , MA , NY , and MD city is in the same boat and i don't think they realize what there sitting on. That being said maybe its time to get private investors to fund a project? The PA govt doesn't seem to care enough anymore which is a shame since it was the birthplace of RR. If they really cared , Septa and PAT wouldn't be as backwards as it is today. The Amount of stations and track the ripped up is more then any other agency on the east coast and 80% wasn't necessary. PA has a plan to restore a majority of those services but its in there 2035 Intercity and Urban Rail plan. Whatever happens Western PA will be last , sorry but you guys have to wait for the East to restore itself.....
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:33 PM
 
Location: RVA
2,420 posts, read 4,695,406 times
Reputation: 1212
Cue boneheads saying "it'll never turn a profit!"

Because that's what mass transit is all about, turning a profit.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:33 PM
 
Location: South Oakland, Pittsburgh, PA
875 posts, read 1,482,925 times
Reputation: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by creepsinc View Post
Cue boneheads saying "it'll never turn a profit!"

Because that's what mass transit is all about, turning a profit.
^^^THIS

Whatever happened to public service? A public commodity? For the better good? I'm disgraced by the way people think today in this country... it's all about me me me.

Also, cue other boneheads saying, "why are the taxes I pay being spent on something I don't use?" Fits in the same line of logic.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh area
9,912 posts, read 24,543,247 times
Reputation: 5162
Quote:
Originally Posted by creepsinc View Post
Cue boneheads saying "it'll never turn a profit!"

Because that's what mass transit is all about, turning a profit.
LOL Not only this, but for some reason RAIL specifically needs to break even. Nobody expects roads or airports to break even. WTF.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:40 PM
 
Location: South Oakland, Pittsburgh, PA
875 posts, read 1,482,925 times
Reputation: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg42 View Post
LOL Not only this, but for some reason RAIL specifically needs to break even. Nobody expects roads or airports to break even. WTF.
I mean, clearly Route 28 and the Parkway East are turning profits, I don't know what YOU'RE thinking...
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