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Old 08-19-2010, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Philly
8,785 posts, read 7,396,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
But seriously, there are already buses that go straight from Allegheny Center over the river into Downtown, and they have a clear path thanks to the Three Sisters. In fact from most of Allegheny Center you could probably walk to Downtown faster than the time it would take you to walk to the new station, catch the T, and get back off in Downtown...Having a T stop an inconvenient walk away, and not much closer than Downtown itself, just isn't a game-changer for Allegheny Center, at least not while the T doesn't go anywhere particularly useful besides Downtown.
you seem overly obsessed with debating the T. it's already been pointed out that it's not nearly as inconvenient as you've made it out to be. I believe the nearby T stop, if properly used, could serve as part of that solution for allegheny center. cost of improving signage, lighting, and perhaps even better access (which also works for access to pnc park) isn't that great and it's utility extends to PNC PArk/North Shore as well...in some ways similar to this project. we both agree the stop would be more useful with a T extension to oakland. if you wish to discuss allegheny center, I'd be happy to talk about it, but debating whether a ten minute walk is too much for people to bother with the t isn't worth the time. and please don't put words in my mouth, I never said it's a game changer, it was a part of an overall vision espoused by someone else that I found interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
It overlaps one corner of the original Commons, in the part that used to be occupied by the Western Theological Seminary and a portion of Monument Hill. That portion of the campus is mostly parking lots, as I recall.
yes, now that you mention it, that's correct from the diagrams in that master plan. seems like a good long term plan would be to get rid of the surface lots and return it to parkland. I believe there was some talk of restoring monument hill in the master plan. I shall not mention what else this part of the park is very close to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
I'd love to see that happen, but I think people would squawk about it. As an alternative, I'd like to see it dug into a trench and decked over with a park (note you'd probably want to do the railroad too).
Edit: Although the Allegheny Center mall would REALLY become an eyesore then.
it would be much cheaper to just bury the railroad (or even lower it more such that it's below grade entering the park and goes under merchant st )and build a blvd. I'm sure people would squawk, but it seems possible, pending a traffic study. while it would certainly do as you say in regards to the mall, it would also reward redevelopment of the mall even more.

Last edited by pman; 08-19-2010 at 02:24 PM..
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:29 PM
 
20,274 posts, read 18,231,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
you seem overly obsessed with debating the T.
I'm debating it exactly as much as you are.

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it's already been pointed out that it's not nearly as inconvenient as you've made it out to be.
Actually, it is precisely as inconvenient as I made it out to be. I didn't say it was impossible, I said it was a long and unpleasant walk. Which it is, and that means very few people are going to make that walk when they can just catch any number of more convenient buses that go straight into Downtown.

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I believe the nearby T stop, if properly used, could serve as part of that solution for allegheny center.
Seriously, why? I'm not kidding: there is already much more convenient bus service straight from Allegheny Center into Downtown. What's so special about the T that it can make up for being so much less convenient?

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we both agree the stop would be more useful with a T extension to oakland.
That is understating my view. I can't emphasize this enough: the existing bus service to Downtown is perfectly fine, and the T as it currently exists isn't going to improve on that service. The only meaningful change would be better transit from Allegheny Center and the rest of the North Side to some OTHER important destination beside Downtown, Oakland being the highest priority.

So it is not like 50% of the potential value is already there, and another 50% of the potential value would come with an extension to Oakland. It is like 1% of the potential value is already there, and 99% of the potential value would depend on an extension to Oakland. And even then--this would still be a pretty poor way to get to Oakland, and a stop actually in Allegheny Center would be highly preferable.

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if you wish to discuss allegheny center, I'd be happy to talk about it, but debating whether a ten minute walk is too much for people to bother with the t isn't worth the time.
Again, I'm debating it exactly as much as you are. And you simply aren't addressing the point that there is already much more convenient bus service direct from Allegheny Center to Downtown. Why would you walk even ten minutes out of your way instead?

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and please don't put words in my mouth, I never said it's a game changer, it was a part of an overall vision espoused by someone else that I found interesting.
Right, and I am saying it is going to take a game changer to have a meaningful impact on the redevelopment of Allegheny Center. Which, again, is because there is already convenient bus service into Downtown.

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yes, now that you mention it, that's correct from the diagrams in that master plan. seems like a good long term plan would be to get rid of the surface lots and return it to parkland.
I agree.

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I believe there was some talk of restoring monument hill in the master plan. I shall not mention what else this part of the park is very close to.
Too late! I already broke the seal above when I noted I thought the new T station might get some ridership from CCAC. Obviously that would apply to any overlapping park area.

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it woudl be much cheaper to just bury the railroad (or evel lower it more) and build a blvd. I'm sure people would squawk, but it seems possible, pending a traffic study.
I'm with you, but I'm trying to imagine the powers that be in SWPA being willing to do that. Put some stoplights between the North Hills and the stadiums and casino? No way!

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while it would certainly do as you say in regards to the mall, it would also reward redevelopment of the mall even more.
Absolutely. I honestly think this issue has been ignored in part because you can't really see how horrible it is from most places.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Philly
8,785 posts, read 7,396,307 times
Reputation: 2045
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Seriously, why? I'm not kidding: there is already much more convenient bus service straight from Allegheny Center into Downtown. What's so special about the T that it can make up for being so much less convenient?..

That is understating my view. I can't emphasize this enough
why so obsessed with downtown? get over it. and no, it's not that inconvenient. and yes, you've empasized enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
: Oakland being the highest priority.
duh

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
and a stop actually in Allegheny Center would be highly preferable.
yep, but it's good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Again, I'm debating it exactly as much as you are.
no, I keep trying to talk about other things and you go off on your T rant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
And you simply aren't addressing the point that there is already much more convenient bus service direct from Allegheny Center to Downtown. Why would you walk even ten minutes out of your way instead?
what's to address, I said reinstating federal st would allow for direct routing through allegheny ctr. you're putting words in my mouth again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Right, and I am saying it is going to take a game changer to have a meaningful impact on the redevelopment of Allegheny Center.
you mean like a revitalized downtown? or like a new market? if it's so close to downtown, why does allegheny ctr need a game changer? it seems like use and design can be a game changer, agumented by T and bus service as well as a revitalized park (which itself could be a game changer).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
I'm with you, but I'm trying to imagine the powers that be in SWPA being willing to do that. Put some stoplights between the North Hills and the stadiums and casino? No way!
they were already wrong about the casinos demographics no? maybe part of the city plan.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:02 PM
 
20,274 posts, read 18,231,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
why so obsessed with downtown? get over it.
Because we are talking about the T, so where it actually goes is relevant, don't you think?

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and no, it's not that inconvenient.
Too inconvenient to justify the walk when a perfectly fine service is right in front of you.

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and yes, you've empasized enough.
And yet strangely, you have never addressed the fact there is much more convenient bus service that people would supposedly be walking right past in order to get to the T instead, for reasons you have never quite explained.

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yep, but it's good enough.
Is it? Right now it takes about 45 minutes to get from Allegheny Center to Oakland on the 54C. That is pretty sucky. But start with a 15 minute walk to the T station, and how much is T service from that station to Oakland (and not all trains will run that way) going to take on top? It is like 2.5 miles from Allegheny Center to Oakland as the crow flies. We've got to be able to do better than that.

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no, I keep trying to talk about other things and you go off on your T rant.
I'm responding to your other things by talking about those other things, and only discussing the T in response to your discussions of the T.

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what's to address, I said reinstating federal st would allow for direct routing through allegheny ctr. you're putting words in my mouth again.
What you need to address is why someone would bother to walk over to the T station when there is a convenient bus service straight into Downtown right in front of them (this is true even now, and would be even more true if Federal is restored).

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you mean like a revitalized downtown? or like a new market? if it's so close to downtown, why does allegheny ctr need a game changer? it seems like use and design can be a game changer, agumented by T and bus service as well as a revitalized park (which itself could be a game changer).
In order for TRANSIT service to make a difference, it needs to be a gamechanger. Allegheny Center might do OK without gamechanging transit, but if people could conveniently live in the North Side and work in the East End, or vice-versa, it would really increase the potential demand.

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they were already wrong about the casinos demographics no? maybe part of the city plan.
If anything the casino demographic is more suburban than they were hoping. But in any event, I like the idea of putting something in the City plan--at least it would be a start, and I think you are absolutely right about how transformative that would be.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:25 PM
 
20,274 posts, read 18,231,015 times
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By the way, as an alternative to going around in circles:

Exhibits 2-16 through 2-19 in these two links are really interesting:

http://www.spcregion.org/ECTS/pdf/finalreport/ch2_2.pdf
http://www.spcregion.org/ECTS/pdf/finalreport/ch2_3.pdf

You can see how lots of people are already commuting from the North Side to Downtown, and lots of those commuters are using public transit. However, there is a big dropoff when you look at North Side to Oakland commutes, and the percentage of public transit commutes among those commuters plummets, despite lots of the commuters from Downtown and The Strip to Oakland using public transit.

That is an illustration of what I am trying to suggest above: while the North Side already has a tight, transit-oriented link to Downtown, a direct transit link from the North Side to Oakland is a potential game changer.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Philly
8,785 posts, read 7,396,307 times
Reputation: 2045
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Because we are talking about the T, so where it actually goes is relevant, don't you think?
oo inconvenient to justify the walk when a perfectly fine service is right in front of you.
And yet strangely, you have never addressed the fact there is much more convenient bus service that people would supposedly be walking right past in order to get to the T instead, for reasons you have never quite explained.
why do I need to explain something that doesn't make sense? the bus service isn't new, I never disagreed that bus service is good, honestly, I think you're just pushing yoru schtick for no apparent reason. people can take the T wherever it goes, it's not that inconvenient. you really are a stubborn one. you've basically sidetracked the whole thread with your obsession with saying the T is useless. get over it, it's there, it's not far, people can use it to go where it goes just like they can hop a bus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Is it? Right now it takes about 45 minutes to get from Allegheny Center to Oakland on the 54C. That is pretty sucky. But start with a 15 minute walk to the T station, and how much is T service from that station to Oakland (and not all trains will run that way) going to take on top? It is like 2.5 miles from Allegheny Center to Oakland as the crow flies. We've got to be able to do better than that.
one would guess many trains would run that way. and yes, I'd imagine people would use it despite 10-15 min walk if it were significantly faster.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
What you need to address is why someone would bother to walk over to the T station when there is a convenient bus service straight into Downtown right in front of them (this is true even now, and would be even more true if Federal is restored).
why do I need to address it? seems like you need to address something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
In order for TRANSIT service to make a difference, it needs to be a gamechanger. Allegheny Center might do OK without gamechanging transit, but if people could conveniently live in the North Side and work in the East End, or vice-versa, it would really increase the potential demand.
but to flip it around, does transit need to be the gamechanger to change allegheny ctr? I'm not so sure. it would help, but there are other things that can be done. namely restoring federal st and the park, changing zoning, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
If anything the casino demographic is more suburban than they were hoping. But in any event, I like the idea of putting something in the City plan--at least it would be a start, and I think you are absolutely right about how transformative that would be.
actually, the reports I've seen (and I'm not a gambler) are that drive up slot revenue was way short, people prefer to drive to the one off the highway exit, but table games have gone over well. since I don't gamble, I haven't been, but I'd guess table games skew younger...whether it be suburban or urban.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Philly
8,785 posts, read 7,396,307 times
Reputation: 2045
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
That is an illustration of what I am trying to suggest above: while the North Side already has a tight, transit-oriented link to Downtown, a direct transit link from the North Side to Oakland is a potential game changer.
well, duh, we've agreed to that already, and I'm dumbfounded as to why you keep harping on this. what do you think of the plan put forth that you provided the link for? do you think any change at all in allegheny ctr needs a transit link as a start? seems being walking distance to downtown and the north shore itself should be worth something. maybe if the mall werent such a turd it too would be an asset, no?
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:33 PM
 
20,274 posts, read 18,231,015 times
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Also ever-interesting, the 1993 Spine Line study:

http://www.briem.com/files/spineline1993.pdf

Looks like they had estimated the North Side to Oakland to take around 15 minutes, give or take. That is very good, and what we should be seeking for the North Side. But adding a 10-15 minute walk (and more, as you get deeper into the North Side) to even get to the T, and . . . well, that is better than 45 minutes, but not nearly as good as it should be.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:43 PM
 
20,274 posts, read 18,231,015 times
Reputation: 2823
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
why do I need to explain something that doesn't make sense? the bus service isn't new, I never disagreed that bus service is good, honestly, I think you're just pushing yoru schtick for no apparent reason. people can take the T wherever it goes, it's not that inconvenient. you really are a stubborn one. you've basically sidetracked the whole thread with your obsession with saying the T is useless. get over it, it's there, it's not far, people can use it to go where it goes just like they can hop a bus.
Again, you've been just as interested in discussing the T as I have. My point is that the only place the T currently goes that North Side/Allegheny Center residents are going to want to go in large numbers is Downtown, and they already have more convenient options to get Downtown. Therefore, unless it is extended to somewhere else, the new T station is going to do very little for the North Side/Allegheny Center, lighting and signs or no. The opposite logic applies as well--I can guarantee people from the South Hills are not going to tolerate a 15 minute walk from the new T station with toddlers to get to the Children's Museum.

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one would guess many trains would run that way. and yes, I'd imagine people would use it despite 10-15 min walk if it were significantly faster.
Here I agree with you: 15 minutes walk plus 15 minutes on the T would still beat 45 minutes on the 54C. But we can do a lot better still.

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why do I need to address it? seems like you need to address something.
You've been promoting the new T station as serving the transportation needs of Allegheny Center. Don't you think you should actually have some actual transportation needs in mind? People won't walk 15 minutes to a T station for no particular purpose.

Quote:
but to flip it around, does transit need to be the gamechanger to change allegheny ctr? I'm not so sure. it would help, but there are other things that can be done. namely restoring federal st and the park, changing zoning, etc.
Again here I agree. There are lots of non-transit gamechangers relevant to Allegheny Center. I was just pointing out what would have to happen in order for a transit project to get on that list.

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actually, the reports I've seen (and I'm not a gambler) are that drive up slot revenue was way short, people prefer to drive to the one off the highway exit, but table games have gone over well. since I don't gamble, I haven't been, but I'd guess table games skew younger...whether it be suburban or urban.
I know slot revenue has been lower than expected across the board. I didn't think non-driving slot revenue was an exception, but you could be right.

I do think the North Shore Connector could help out there, regardless.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:48 PM
 
20,274 posts, read 18,231,015 times
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Originally Posted by pman View Post
well, duh, we've agreed to that already, and I'm dumbfounded as to why you keep harping on this.
I thought providing some hard information from a third party would at least be a welcome change.

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what do you think of the plan put forth that you provided the link for?
Generally I like it, except for the aforementioned exception for the playgrounds at the north end. I'd also probably be OK with tearing down a lot more of the mall part on the south end--I respect the desire to preserve and reuse whenever possible, but boy does that building stink.

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do you think any change at all in allegheny ctr needs a transit link as a start?
Nope, but I do think it would be a good idea.

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seems being walking distance to downtown and the north shore itself should be worth something.
Definitely.

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maybe if the mall werent such a turd it too would be an asset, no?
I guess it depends on what you have in mind. The mall is classic poorly designed, poorly-constructed, anti-urban, anti-pedestrian crap. Could there be office buildings there that wouldn't be such crap, assuming they fit within a restored street grid? Absolutely! And maybe you could modify the existing structure to achieve that, but I wouldn't shed any tears if it all came down.
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