Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Just thinking it would be an improvement even to institute 2-way traffic around the box. Connecting Federal all the way through would be amazing, but just how they'll do that with the building in the way seems a bit further off. E. Ohio through to Ridge seems much more easily doable and why not do it?
No, but it won't be easy and it is still far away from where people actually live.
Quote:
eh, not THAT costly. the bulk of the work is done.
Note that not only do you have to reconfigure the current T, you also have to figure out how to get it past the highways and railroads in the way. It is just a mess over there trying to get back into the North Side, and I can guarantee the bill would be quite substantial, if not NSC substantial.
Quote:
I'd have to disagree with this. there's absolutely no reason not to improve access to the station (which would also improve pedestrian access to pnc park.
I thought you were talking about extending the T, and the reason people will cite to not do it is cost.
I think it is crucial to understand that the existing bus service from the North Side to the North Shore and Downtown really isn't bad. The problem is getting from the North Side to anywhere else. That was the whole idea of the Spine Line, and without the Oakland part I just don't see anyone agreeing to fund any more T extensions on the North Side.
Quote:
Of course he could.
Really? I don't see the state unilaterally putting up the money. Realistically, it either has to be fed money--which the governor doesn't control--or a PPP, and they might not go for the Spine Line.
I'd love to be wrong, but what I see happening is Onorato promoting it, then the money not actually showing up.
Just thinking it would be an improvement even to institute 2-way traffic around the box. Connecting Federal all the way through would be amazing, but just how they'll do that with the building in the way seems a bit further off. E. Ohio through to Ridge seems much more easily doable and why not do it?
Quote:
A more constructive strategy is to convince the mall's owners that a reconfiguration makes economic sense, and that the walls -- which after all are only steel frames with thin covers, can be readily opened up to let Federal through. Students at Carnegie Mellon's Urban Lab have developed a beautiful design for doing just that. Can removing a few steel columns and beams really be such a daunting task for the Steel City?
I'm sure the mall would be better off if the area improved as well. It depends on the owner but certainly it's more than feasible that it would improve the mall itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BriantTH
No, but it won't be easy and it is still far away from where people actually live.Note that not only do you have to reconfigure the current T, you also have to figure out how to get it past the highways and railroads in the way. It is just a mess over there trying to get back into the North Side, and I can guarantee the bill would be quite substantial, if not NSC substantial.
certainly nowhere near NSC substantial, which reconfigured an existing downtown station and bored tunnels under a river. expensive? yes, but far less expensive than if the project required a new river crossing. as you noted, actual extension of the T would, and probably should, come with an oakland extension.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH
I thought you were talking about extending the T, and the reason people will cite to not do it is cost
no, I'm talking about making it easier to get to the new station by PNC Park. it's been built, access should be improved. Perfect? no. improvement? yes.
The governor promoting is fairly important and shouldn't be so callously thrown aside. As governor he can come up not only with study money, but most likely the state match as well. the project would sink or swim on its merits, not lack of political will and state match, giving it a much better chance. I don't necessarily see it sinking, if current ridership projections match past ones.
as you noted, actual extension of the T would, and probably should, come with an oakland extension.
That's really all the point I am trying to make. My concern is that the T won't get extended to Oakland any time in the near future for lack of funding, which in turn would mean it is very unlikely the T would get extended into the North Side. So I think the North Side needs a Plan B for getting express service to Oakland and other non-Downtown destinations, which may be Plan A in terms of actual timing.
Quote:
no, I'm talking about making it easier to get to the new station by PNC Park. it's been built, access should be improved. Perfect? no. improvement? yes.
I thought we were discussing both. In any event, I'm fine with improving pedestrian access to the new station, but to be realistic, that just isn't going to help many North Side residents.
Quote:
The governor promoting is fairly important and shouldn't be so callously thrown aside. As governor he can come up not only with study money, but most likely the state match as well. the project would sink or swim on its merits, not lack of political will and state match, giving it a much better chance. I don't necessarily see it sinking, if current ridership projections match past ones.
I'm not suggesting we should "throw aside" the possible role a governor could play. But I think a fair summary of what you are describing is that a supportive governor is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for getting this project fully funded. Again, that makes me very worried about it not happening any time soon, and in turn that makes me think we need a Plan B (which may become Plan A, at least for a while).
Incidentally, the studies I have seen are, frankly, a bit of a mixed bag. The incremental ridership between a BRT system and a subway aren't necessarily going to be huge (even less if it isn't a subway), unless you assume a lot more induced demand along the route if it is a subway. I personally think that is a very good assumption, at least if the subway goes via the Hill. I also think in the long run we will want to extend the T past Oakland, maybe as far out as Wilkinsburg. But the immediate impact of an Oakland-only phase may not be as high as you would want in light of the likely cost estimates.
That's really all the point I am trying to make. My concern is that the T won't get extended to Oakland any time in the near future for lack of funding, which in turn would mean it is very unlikely the T would get extended into the North Side. So I think the North Side needs a Plan B for getting express service to Oakland and other non-Downtown destinations, which may be Plan A in terms of actual timing.
I'm a little less negative on the outlook for Oakland but the point I think you'r emissing most is that we're not talking about the northside but Allegheny Center.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH
I thought we were discussing both. In any event, I'm fine with improving pedestrian access to the new station, but to be realistic, that just isn't going to help many North Side residents.
we were and it should help enough, especially Allegheny Center/Commons, not to mention bus routings.
Having walked from the area of the new North Shore T station to the Aviary/Allegheny Commons several weeks ago, I can say that it's not a bad walk (10 to 15 minutes), but that still is too long a walk for most people in this country it seems, and I think the numerous underpasses really do create psychological barriers to walking. No amount of lighting can fully improve that, and I fear the same thing with I-579 doing to the Lower Hill.
Still, I think in that sense that reconnecting Federal Street is even more important that East Ohio Street (even though it could be more difficult) by creating an "avenue" of sorts from Downtown all the way into the heart of the North Side. However, the problem with the "the new North Shore T station will bring people to the North Side" argument is that the most straight-line path for pedestrians from there would be little-known Merchant Street (behind the old Clark Building) and not Federal Street. Perhaps improving the "visibility" of Merchant Street in the same way would be warranted as well for this very reason.
I'm a little less negative on the outlook for Oakland
I hope you are right! But I still want a Plan B.
Quote:
but the point I think you'r emissing most is that we're not talking about the northside but Allegheny Center.
Allegheny Center is part of the North Side, at least as I use the term. And in any event, the parts of Allegheny Center closest to the new station are the parts without residents and without attractions other people would want to visit. In fact I think less than 1000 people total live in Allegheny Center. I'd guess the new station will likely get more people associated with CCAC and Allegheny West than Allegheny Center.
Quote:
we were and it should help enough, especially Allegheny Center/Commons, not to mention bus routings.
I really just don't see that. Buses like the 11C and 11D (edit: and the 16, 1D, 1F, and 6A :unedit) actually circle the Commons, and do a loop through the Cultural District using the Warhol and Carson Bridges. The only people in the Commons I could see making the effort to walk over to the North Shore to catch the T are people who wanted to get somewhere farther out in the T system specifically.
Allegheny Center is part of the North Side, at least as I use the term. And in any event, the parts of Allegheny Center closest to the new station are the parts without residents and without attractions other people would want to visit. In fact I think less than 1000 people total live in Allegheny Center. I'd guess the new station will likely get more people associated with CCAC and Allegheny West than Allegheny Center.
part of, but service to ALL the north side isn't necessary for service to allegheny center. and getting back to undoing the damage to Allegheny center and the vision laid out in the article where I originally highlighted the transit piece, it's relevant. it's less about what's there today, than what could be there tomorrow. bring back the market? increase the residents? return to the original vision of a downtown core surrounded by park? to that end, the north shore station could serve as a part of that puzzle if connected properly via lighting, signage, and possibly a new road. as noted, the connection via merchant st isn't that far at all. is CCAC part of the original allegheny commons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Impala26
Having walked from the area of the new North Shore T station to the Aviary/Allegheny Commons several weeks ago, I can say that it's not a bad walk (10 to 15 minutes),
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH
I really just don't see that. Buses like the 11C and 11D (edit: and the 16, 1D, 1F, and 6A :unedit) actually circle the Commons, and do a loop through the Cultural District using the Warhol and Carson Bridges. The only people in the Commons I could see making the effort to walk over to the North Shore to catch the T are people who wanted to get somewhere farther out in the T system specifically.
sure, the whole system works better if the T goes to oakland, no doubt about it.
getting back to allegheny center, and perhaps ignoring the T stop for now, implementing federal street is easily the most important street. has anyone looked at anything crazier like eliminating the section of 279 currint the commons off from the riverfront? you could replace it with a wide boulevard.
part of, but service to ALL the north side isn't necessary for service to allegheny center. and getting back to undoing the damage to Allegheny center and the vision laid out in the article where I originally highlighted the transit piece, it's relevant. it's less about what's there today, than what could be there tomorrow. bring back the market? increase the residents? return to the original vision of a downtown core surrounded by park? to that end, the north shore station could serve as a part of that puzzle if connected properly via lighting, signage, and possibly a new road. as noted, the connection via merchant st isn't that far at all.
But seriously, there are already buses that go straight from Allegheny Center over the river into Downtown, and they have a clear path thanks to the Three Sisters. In fact from most of Allegheny Center you could probably walk to Downtown faster than the time it would take you to walk to the new station, catch the T, and get back off in Downtown.
Having a T stop an inconvenient walk away, and not much closer than Downtown itself, just isn't a game-changer for Allegheny Center, at least not while the T doesn't go anywhere particularly useful besides Downtown.
Quote:
is CCAC part of the original allegheny commons?
It overlaps one corner of the original Commons, in the part that used to be occupied by the Western Theological Seminary and a portion of Monument Hill. That portion of the campus is mostly parking lots, as I recall.
Quote:
sure, the whole system works better if the T goes to oakland, no doubt about it.
To be more specific about Allegheny Center, and the North Side in general, it doesn't really need more/upgraded transit options to Downtown, because it already has a lot of quick transit options for Downtown. But it lacks good options to Oakland and much of the East End, which is really a problem these days given Pittsburgh's economic and development patterns. That is why I wrote above that the goal for this area should be to get a direct, express, service to Oakland/East End. A T extension to Oakland plus a T extension into the North Side would do that, but there are other ways.
Quote:
getting back to allegheny center, and perhaps ignoring the T stop for now, implementing federal street is easily the most important street. has anyone looked at anything crazier like eliminating the section of 279 currint the commons off from the riverfront? you could replace it with a wide boulevard.
I'd love to see that happen, but I think people would squawk about it. As an alternative, I'd like to see it dug into a trench and decked over with a park (note you'd probably want to do the railroad too).
Edit: Although the Allegheny Center mall would REALLY become an eyesore then.
Last edited by BrianTH; 08-19-2010 at 01:02 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
E. Ohio through to Ridge seems much more easily doable and why not do it?
