Pittsburgh has what DC needs - let's build a 200mph bullet train between them! (Philadelphia: transplants, job market)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

I think it has far more to do with federal policy than anything else.

I'd agree with that, but local authorities still have a role to play in setting priorities and promoting projects, a role which has recently increased, and is likely to further increase in the future if current trends continue.

And these issues intersect here in the Pittsburgh area, as the Spine Line fiasco well-demonstrated (the relevant politicians were both County and federal officials, united by the fact that they could safely ignore the City's residents as irrelevant to their political prospects). Similarly, as other places do things like adopt by referendum a small sales tax increase dedicated to public transit, the structure of politics at the local and state level makes such a thing much harder to achieve here.

edited to add: I also think the corrupt nature of PA politics is part of the problem. PA recently failed to apply for round 2 high speed rail funds claiming there isn't enough money...but the capital budget includes money for hotels, gold courses, libraries for murtha and specter, etc...all kinds of pork projects. the money is there, it just isn't going to the right places.

Absolutely, which is part of why I have little confidence that moving funding from the federal to state level would help. We really need to have these decisions being made at the metro level, and in voluntary pacts between metros.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

Ok - If you could get over youself and Philly love for a 2nd....I wasn't dissing Philly...But look at the time it would take to travel out Philly and then Down to DC....Rather than having a spine that splits off the Keystone and goes directly to DC cutting travel times....That was my suggestion of skipping Philly....NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT PHILLY OK!
NY trains would still travel thru Philly.....

just figured you were hating. my bad. in the long run, a more direct route to DC should be in the cards whether it be via harrisburg or a very expensive direct route. I know not everything is about philly, just seemed it was all about skipping it. my apologies.

Brian-remember the stadiums. in order to get that through, both sides of the state had to be appeased. it also appears the next governor will be from western pa so I wouldn't be so sure pittsburgh would be cut out of anything. not to get this off topic but I attended a high speed rail forum for PA and the DC based consultant asked me where I went by train. mostly NY was the answer at the time, sometimes lancaster. he seemed satisfied. I asked, "don't know you care where I'd like to go by train? I mean, the only reason I often don't go to pittsburgh by train is because it's ridiculously slow. A: "why the hell would you want to go there?"
I went to school in DC and found the people to be completely obnoxious in that respect. I tend to suspect that plans using DC absed consultants will be inherently inferior as they operate in the cloud that is DC, far from reality.


I think that connection from east to west in PA should be the state's highest priority (after lowering the CNI).

[szug-bot]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

Auto roads aren't really conducive to travelling either.. going to see my friends or family requires an almost $20 EACH WAY toll on the turnpike.. and that's only to harrisburg...

i think thats very 'conducive'. pay as you go, whats wrong with that?

when i travelled the turnpike fairly often, i would take US 30 for much of the way (doing the turnpike only between Pgh and Somerset, and from breezewood onward). even with slowing to navigate the toll booths, it didnt take much longer, and over the course of several months, saved me a nice chunk of money. some interesting scenery to be had, too. give it a try.

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by pman

just figured you were hating. my bad. in the long run, a more direct route to DC should be in the cards whether it be via harrisburg or a very expensive direct route. I know not everything is about philly, just seemed it was all about skipping it. my apologies.


I think that connection from east to west in PA should be the state's highest priority (after lowering the CNI).

I would be happy if they could just get that portion completed....Remember I said in "perfect world"....Also like Brian said for those traveling from DC to the Mid-west via Pittsburgh would not want to have to go out to Philly 1st....it wouldn't be any faster than a car.

NYC - Philly - Harrisburg is already in place with the current Keystone line which works perfect, just upgrading Keystone west to Pittsburgh is the only missing leg....the DC spine would have to be Split off from the Keystone around the Somerset area to be effecently fast to DC so Harrisburg would be bypassed as well.

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by szug-bot

i think thats very 'conducive'. pay as you go, whats wrong with that?

when i travelled the turnpike fairly often, i would take US 30 for much of the way (doing the turnpike only between Pgh and Somerset, and from breezewood onward). even with slowing to navigate the toll booths, it didnt take much longer, and over the course of several months, saved me a nice chunk of money. some interesting scenery to be had, too. give it a try.

I wouldn't really consider Somerset->Breezewood "much of the way". It's 60 miles of a 360 mile long road.

I am not really against toll roads, a toll on a state-maintained roads primarily used by out of staters makes sense. A toll on a road used primarily for entertainment purposes makes sense.. But at 40 bucks for a trip on road that has the same plagues as the rest of the state.. lack of shoulders, never ending construction, etc, you can't help but feel like you are getting bent over a barrel. I have a friend who works for the turnpike commission and his stories of inefficiency are just disheartening.

[rhondee]

For Tiger Beer I would love to be able to work in DC area and know many nurses who work in that area, Georgetown,etc . Plus I go down to rally on the steps of the capitol for health care issues,etc.
However, D.C. is not interested in getting a direct high speed rail line to Pittsburgh. We just are not important or vital enough to them to have that happen.
Washington figures that the Allegheny Passage bicycle trail is good enough for Pittsburghers!

[pman]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

NYC - Philly - Harrisburg is already in place with the current Keystone line which works perfect, just upgrading Keystone west to Pittsburgh is the only missing leg....the DC spine would have to be Split off from the Keystone around the Somerset area to be effecently fast to DC so Harrisburg would be bypassed as well.

actually, for real high speeds, you're most likely going to need dedicated track. upgrades to the current route would help, and you could probably compete with drive times, but not a whole lot more than that. remember, the pennsylvania turnpike uses an incomplete railroad right of way that was supposed to compete with the PRR. it was called the south pennsylvania and was funded by vanderbilt's NY Central. JP Morgan sat thompson (PRR) and vanderbilt down and got them to agree not to compete. PRR woudl stay out of NY, and vanderbilt would drop the south pennsylvania. that route was later used to build the nation's first turnpike...it's something like 40 miles shorter than the railroad. if we really want to transform travel, a new right of way is in order. 186 mph or 220 mph. since Amtrak owns the eastern portion, you can concentrate only a portion of it. the only issue is you have to get new track built for NS to keep them off the Keystone, or come to a temporal solution. those trains, for the time being, would have to terminate in PHilly until regulatory approval could be found to run lighter weight trains on the nec.

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by rhondee

For Tiger Beer I would love to be able to work in DC area and know many nurses who work in that area, Georgetown,etc . Plus I go down to rally on the steps of the capitol for health care issues,etc.
However, D.C. is not interested in getting a direct high speed rail line to Pittsburgh. We just are not important or vital enough to them to have that happen.
Washington figures that the Allegheny Passage bicycle trail is good enough for Pittsburghers!

I wouldn't say that....Pittsburgh/DC are both in the top 5 of each others Hinterlands....DC already has established Rail between its other NE connector cousin-cities....Even if the majority of DC wanted to go to the Mid-west that still mean going thru the Burgh 1st.....

Dont sell Pittsburgh so short, that's our problem we think tooo little of ourselves, more than the rest of the country even does.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

Dont sell Pittsburgh so short, that's our problem we think tooo little of ourselves, more than the rest of the country even does.

don't kill me for saying this but back in the 70's Philly had a slogan "Philadelphia, not as bad as Philadelphians say it is"
still, she's right, DC barely acknowledges there's another part of the country. from a practical standpoint, you are correct, pittsburgh is the most logical point between east and west. where else would it be? charleston? pitt makes a nice distribution point to toronto, detroit, chicago, cincy, etc. I also think pennsylvanians make good train riders.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

Brian-remember the stadiums. in order to get that through, both sides of the state had to be appeased.

But that's a great example of my point. I don't actually think the stadiums were a good use of the relevant funds, or for that matter the relevant land, but you could build a constituency for them that spanned large parts of the state, so that is what got funded.

it also appears the next governor will be from western pa so I wouldn't be so sure pittsburgh would be cut out of anything.

I hope you are right, but part of my point is that it really matters where in Western PA you get your votes. Again, all the people involved in killing the Spine Line had Western PA constituencies to worry about pleasing, but not in the City, so they could afford to kill off the Spine Line with impunity.

A: "why the hell would you want to go there?"

Yeah, unfortunately the notion of "flyover country" is still alive and well on the coasts.

I went to school in DC and found the people to be completely obnoxious in that respect. I tend to suspect that plans using DC absed consultants will be inherently inferior as they operate in the cloud that is DC, far from reality.

I doubt it would be any different with people in NYC, Boston, or so on. I went to college in CT, and they all think the same way about places like Pittsburgh, my original hometown (Detroit), and so on. Philly might be a little more favorably-inclined when it comes to Pittsburgh, but that is just because we are in the same state.