where to move? (Pittsburgh, Lebanon, Scott Township: environment, work, housing)

[lostinpgh]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

There are a lot of early 20th century houses in Patterson Hts, Beaver County, though you may find the commutes a bit much.

They would certainly be too much to California, but to Youngstown... another matter.

Is there some point that is considered the southern edge of Pittsburgh, with below that considered the Mon Valley?

[janiesgirl]

You mentioned Bethel Park in a previous post. In terms of transportation, you could take the T from BP (there are a few stops) to Mt. Lebanon and then grab the Express that runs from Mt. Lebanon to Oakland.

The Express is a quite efficient way to get to the University. BP would also be closer to California.

Thoughts...

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by lostinpgh

They would certainly be too much to California, but to Youngstown... another matter.

Pittnurse's Patterson Hts, Beaver County, suggestion was for pghlibrarian's circumstances.

Originally Posted by lostinpgh

Is there some point that is considered the southern edge of Pittsburgh, with below that considered the Mon Valley?

What do you mean by the southern edge of Pittsburgh? Do you mean the city limits? Do you mean the county limits? If you're trying to live on the southern edge of the county, you might as well save money on taxes and live in another county. Tax savings in another county could be as high as ten thousand dollars per year!

Originally Posted by pghlibrarian

We will most likely move to an apartment in Cranberry Township when the lease is up, but we have looked at some places in Wexford and northern Allegheny County as well. It's a little father for me, but the Airport area may work out as well. There are some good apartments in Moon and Robinson townships. In a few years we'll probably buy a house and Southern Butler or Beaver County look attractive for a number of reasons, taxes being the biggest concern. I told my mom what some of the millage rates were in Allegheny County and she nearly fell off her chair. And this is coming from a homeowner in New York State, another place infamous for high property taxes.

We really like Cranberry Township, and have taken a look at Beaver and Monaca and liked what we saw. My dream house is a early 20th century bungalow, so Beaver may be just what we are looking for. We need to do a little more exploring of Butler and Beaver Counties. I appreciate the insights that everyone has given on here - they have been really helpful.

I think you've got a good plan. Definitely stay outside of Allegheny County. That will save taxes big time. You're lucky that you're job is outside of Allegheny County so you can take advantage of lower taxes. Halfway inbetween your jobs is perfect. The commute from Cranberry into Pittsburgh is a breeze so I see no reason to look into the airport area. He'll only have a 30 minute drive from Cranberry. It would take that long from the Airport area too.

[Hopes]

If you mean the city, here's a link to the city map:

Pittsburgh Neighborhoods

I really don't consider any of those neighborhoods below the mon valley very nice.

Why do you want to stay right within the city limits? (local income taxes are higher within the city limits.)

You could go just outside of the city limits and be in a nice township with lower income tax.

Here's the Allegheny County township map:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/ma...s/alleghmp.jpg

You could also go just outside of the border of Allegheny County and save more on property taxes, in additon to saving on local income tax.

If the difference in living a few miles further from Pittsburgh means lower taxes just across the border in another county, it's worth considering from a tax standpoint.

[lostinpgh]

Originally Posted by Hopes

Why do you want to stay right within the city limits? (local income taxes are higher within the city limits.)

Because I want to be able to walk places. Some friends just moved to Mt. Lebanon from Chicago last year; they will be moving up into either Squirrel Hill or Shadyside because they want to be able to walk to the grocery store and restaurants and so forth, and their ability to do so in Mt. Lebanon was very restricted by things like the absence of sidewalks. Bethel Park has fewer sidewalks than Mt. Lebanon...

Our favorite residence in the past ten years was in a small townhouse in a community with bike lanes and sidewalks and a walk of under a mile to groceries, fast-casual dining, and Target, and a forty minute bus commute (or a twenty minute drive plus a twenty minute walk in from the parking lot) to the local Research One university. Plus we made almost $70K on the townhouse when we sold it, but I don't expect to duplicate that feat in Pittsburgh.

[Hopes]

I'm glad I asked. Urban living isn't found in all areas within the city limits. Many of those areas are more like suburbs even though they're technically within the city limits. You're best to focus your efforts on neighborhoods within the city that are located between the Allegheny and Mon rivers.

Other areas that are on the other side of the rivers which have a walking neighborhood are as follows:

Southside
North Side.
Sewickley
Oakmont
Aspinwall.

All of those areas will require a bus transfer downtown to Oakland though.

[lostinpgh]

Originally Posted by Hopes

I'm glad I asked. Urban living isn't found in all areas within the city limits. Many of those areas are more like suburbs even though they're technically within the city limits.

Well, lots of suburbs *are* walkable -- the neighborhood I mentioned above was a suburb. It wasn't urban at all, but 1500 sq. ft. ranch houses on quarter acre lots, and a couple of townhouse developments. With bike lanes and sidewalks and a Target within a mile.

Google maps keeps telling me disorienting things, like that South Oakland (which has to be jam-packed with graduate students with no cars) doesn't have a grocery store per se. Which is why I'm posting here -- I am lost.

I saw something or other referring to Braddock as Mon Valley, and Braddock looks like it's all of a mile from Regents Square, which is why I asked where the cutline was.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by lostinpgh

Well, lots of suburbs *are* walkable -- the neighborhood I mentioned above was a suburb. It wasn't urban at all, but 1500 sq. ft. ranch houses on quarter acre lots, and a couple of townhouse developments. With bike lanes and sidewalks and a Target within a mile.

I'm sorry, but most suburbs in Pittsburgh aren't really walkable for things like grocery shopping, etc. Not all small towns immediately outside of the city have grocery stores either. Most of Pittsburgh is designed for driving to the grocery store with the exception of a few neighborhoods members here have already shared with you. That's the way it is here in the greater Pittsburgh area. Many Pittsburghers consider Mt. Lebanon to be walkable, but your friends didn't. Pittsburgh townships generally do not have sidewalks except on just a few streets or a neighborhood or two, but that doesn't mean that there are sidewalks between your house and a grocery store.

Where I live, we have to talk through the woods to get to our nearest grocery store on foot. And it's down a very steep cliff in the woods too. You could break your neck carrying groceries through there. If we took the road, there are areas where there are no sidewalks or even yards to walk in because there are woods right along the street.

Another example is Aspinwall. It has sidewalks, a grocery store and a shopping center nearby, but there is a stretch of road where there is no sidewalk on St. Margaret's Hopsital's property. You can walk in the grass, but there's no sidewalk between the houses in Aspinwall and the grocery store and shopping center.

Originally Posted by lostinpgh

Google maps keeps telling me disorienting things, like that South Oakland (which has to be jam-packed with graduate students with no cars) doesn't have a grocery store per se. Which is why I'm posting here -- I am lost.

I know you're lost. I'm truly trying to help. Pittsburgh is very unique. It's not considered a walkable or bike-able town because of the hills. I know you don't think the hills will bother you. I'm just pointing out that the hills are one of the major reasons the infrastructure is designed the way it's designed. Some walkable places don't have grocery stores. Places that aren't walkable do have grocery stores.

Off the top of my head, areas within the city that won't require you to transfer buses that have a grocery store nearby are Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, Regent Square, Bloomfield/Friendship, East Liberty (quality of neighborhood is debated among many here). Point Breeze does not have a grocery store. I'm sure there are other areas. That's just what I know for sure.

Originally Posted by lostinpgh

I saw something or other referring to Braddock as Mon Valley, and Braddock looks like it's all of a mile from Regents Square, which is why I asked where the cutline was.

Don't worry about the cut line. The city border isn't going to be any indication of walkability. There's walkable and not walkable in both the city and suburban areas. That's what I was trying to explain. I've listed the walking neighborhoods that I know off the top of my head---some city and some more suburban. All of the ones I listed have grocery stores.

Braddock is not in the city limits. Since it's a river town, it's probably walkable to some extent. It's an extremely depressed and dangerous area. You don't want to live there. Be forewarned that many towns along the Mon river are likely to be undesirable areas. Most are old steel mill towns that are now very depressed. Only Southside has recovered from the collapse of the steel industry. Homestead is trying but it's still undesirable in many ways.

Turtle Creek, East Pittsburg, Homestead, Duquesne, and McKeesport are undesirable areas. Basically, avoid the entire Mon Valley. Look a little further inland from the Mon River. The Allegheny River has some decent towns on it's river, but the Mon River isn't so lucky.

In addition to the more desirable, somewhat walkable areas I already mentioned, I recommend creating separate threads for Edgewooda and Swissvale to learn more about those areas. I don't know those areas well enough to give you advice. A few citydata members have recently moved into those areas. They seem to like them very much. I don't know about walkability. I believe they are. But I'm not sure about grocery stores and other types of business in those areas. Also ask about Braddock Hills and Forrest Hills. They're not in the greatest school district, but they might be walkable with convenient grocery stores---I'm not sure. They're more suburban, but it's possible.

I'm sorry this is confusing. I'm sure it's confusing for anyone who is moving to a new area. Keep in mind that the maps make it difficult to judge how close things are. Something might appear nearby, but there might be a cliffside or a ravine separating the two places. I'm sorry Pittsburgh doesn't readily offer the things you're interested in finding. I listed the best neighborhoods for what you want and need.

[Hopes]

I just want to explain the grocery store problem in more detail. Most grocery stores are located on highways and shopping areas throughout the county. Only a select few neighborhoods have a grocery store within it. Add to the problem that most neighborhoods outside of the city don't have sidewalks, it's hard to walk to grocery stores here. Few small river towns have grocery stores anymore. As those neighborhoods becamse depressed, the grocery stores closed down.

Now most major grocery store chains do not serve individual neighorhoods anymore unless the neighborhood is thriving enough to support the grocery store. Since many people do their grocery shopping via car, the amount of grocery stores within neighborhoods is become very limited in number. Grocery chains try to locate their stores on busy highways or busy streets and near other shopping districts. Pittsburgh is the sort of town where most people need a car to go grocery shopping. There are just a few city neighborhoods (everyone already mentioned them to you) that have sidewalks and grocery stores.

When looking for a home, you might do best to go visit area grocery stores and see if there is a little neighborhood off the main road with sidewalks. People from out west are a little amazed to learn that many Pittsburghers do not walk on sidewalks at all. There aren't many neighborhoods with them outside of the city.

Oh! Oh! Oh! Last I knew, you can walk to a grocery store from Bellevue homes. It's not a great grocery store, but it's at least a full service one. Bellevue has sidewalks in the residential areas and business districts. You'd have to transfer buses downtown to get to Oakland though.

That's the thing----neighborhoods we haven't mentioned already, that have what you'd like, will require taking two busses to get to Oakland. Add the shuttle service on top of that to Lawrenceville and that's quite a busy commute by bus.

[lostinpgh]

Originally Posted by Hopes

Basically, avoid the entire Mon Valley.

Ah, so this is why no one is suggesting we live in California?

I'm sorry Pittsburgh doesn't readily offer the things you're interested in finding. I listed the best neighborhoods for what you want and need.

Thanks for your help.