Which neighbiorhhood could be next? (Pittsburgh, Allentown: appointed, crime, homes)

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by greg42

Everything can't always continue the way it used to be. The mill was already closed. Do you honestly think the mall is not better than an EMPTY MILL?

No, but a mill would be better than a mall.

Mills will never come back, I realize that, but if you think the same amount of good paying jobs will come back, you are dreaming.

[pman]

sometimes less is more I guess. you can sort of see those same trends manifested in that hard to read map.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

and revitalization is not necessarily the same thing as gentrification.

Also a good point. Given the ongoing income trends, I think we will see a lot of gentrification. But revitalization as you are defining it should be even more widespread.

also, interestingly, the old wilkinsburg train station is still there. the question once came up, why is there no commuter rail? the obvious answer seems to be the east busway is in the most logical location for commuter rail...the former PRR ROW. I'd also point out the the value of the busway is only as good as the areas it serves. a revitalized east liberty is good for the value of being on the busway for wilkinsburg

And in fact the East Busway is actually more of a commuter line than a local transit line, particularly past Shadyside where it is more or less running in ravines and next to cliffs all the way to Downtown. But between Swissvale and Shadyside it can provide local transit as well, and I believe you are exactly right that a revitalized East Liberty will ultimately be good for TOD in Wilkinsburg.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Copanut

Fine, call me Mr. Anecdote, but you can you honestly tell me that tearing down the Homestead works and replacing it with that God awful mall means more money for the people that work there than the mills?

Well, that's the problem with anecdotes. Regional land use patterns are changing, so focusing on that plot of land in isolation of everything else doesn't really tell you much. Moreover, modern mills employ a tiny fraction of the people they used to, so comparing a mall today to mills in the now-distant past is a largely pointless exercise.

I don't want to make it sound like everything is great and couldn't be better. The recession did hit the Pittsburgh region, and we are still recovering. There are a lot more job opportunities for some people than others, and conversely potential employers are undersupplied in some areas (particularly regarding people with some post-HS training/education less than a 4-year degree).

But in relative terms, we are doing quite well, and there is a reason why we are getting more educated and higher-paid on average: more than not, we are adding good jobs.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Copanut

Mills will never come back, I realize that, but if you think the same amount of good paying jobs will come back, you are dreaming.

It has basically already happened. We have more jobs now than we had in the late 1970s, and on average they are higher-paying in real terms.

A couple things people pining for the days of the steel mills tend to overlook. First, a lot more women are employed now, and many of them have good jobs. Second, our labor force is way more educated on average now.

A truer statement would be that the same amount of good paying jobs for young men without a lot of education or training is unlikely to come back any time soon. That's not a negligible problem, but it isn't the same thing as there being a general job problem in the region.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

It has basically already happened. We have more jobs now than we had in the late 1970s, and on average they are higher-paying in real terms.

Show me some stats, because if what you are stating is true, why has Esplen, Allentown, Carrick, and so many other good areas fallen on hard times.

[greg42]

Originally Posted by Copanut

Mills will never come back, I realize that, but if you think the same amount of good paying jobs will come back, you are dreaming.

Eh, not the same kinds, and probably not the same amount, true. As mentioned already, it's clear there won't be as many easy to find good-paying jobs for those without much training or education.

But mainly, you interjected with the same old lament of so many in this area which is something like "Well the mills are gone so nothing can ever be as good as it once was." If that's true, what's the point of even still living, or at least staying around here? If we can't still have a good life then there isn't much point of going through the motions we go through every day, is there?

[Herodotus]

Originally Posted by Copanut

Show me some stats, because if what you are stating is true, why has Esplen, Allentown, Carrick, and so many other good areas fallen on hard times.

Because development of places like Cranberry has pulled people out of old grungy areas like Allentown and Esplen. It's a trickle down type of thing. Cranberry or Peters is filled with people who would otherwise be living in Ross, or Mt Lebanon, or Upper St. Clair. Those places in turn, will draw some people who earlier would have lived in Shaler, or Dormont. People who before, might have had to settle for Allentown or Esplen, might now find a place in Shaler, or Dormont. Allentown is then left with those too poor to move, plus Section 8 refugees from razed projects. The Braddock's of the world can't even attract many of that demographic, and basically empty out. The neighborhoods would be much more stable if instead of building on farmland, most new construction occurred as a combination of infill, and reconstruction, in already developed areas. Unfortunately, most people don't want a brand new house on a small lot in Mt Lebanon, they want a brand new house on half an acre in an area where all of the other houses are new as well.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by greg42

Eh, not the same kinds, and probably not the same amount, true. As mentioned already, it's clear there won't be as many easy to find good-paying jobs for those without much training or education.

But mainly, you interjected with the same old lament of so many in this area which is something like "Well the mills are gone so nothing can ever be as good as it once was." If that's true, what's the point of even still living, or at least staying around here? If we can't still have a good life then there isn't much point of going through the motions we go through every day, is there?

For the record, I am ALL FOR GETTING THE ENTIRE PITTSBURGH ON THE UPSWING.

But, realistically, how will that happen? The city schools have about a 60% graduation rate, if this economy is all about Eds and Meds, what will those people do?

I want this area to get better, but I doubt that some boros/twps will ever be what they once were.

[jimmyev]

Originally Posted by calvin20874

Yes, I agree that the core area will experience more development. What about places like Wilkinsburg, though? You mentioned the busway as a possible catalyst for revitalization. The busway has been around for more than 20 years, has it not? If anything, Wilkinsburg has decayed further during that time. In fact, it seems to me that the eastern suburbs are slowly fading away in general (having grown up in the eastern suburbs). You could point to the fact that the busway goes through East Liberty as a counter-example, but what has been the catalyst for revitalization of East Liberty? I was under the impression it was spillover (lack of available commercial real estate, etc) from Shadyside, as opposed to the busway.

When I first visited Chicago around 1990, Wicker Park, Bucktown, Wrigleyville were pretty much ghettos existing around El stations. Downtown Des Plaines and Arlington Heights, around heavy rail stations, were decaying. All those areas had been served by many many decades of transit. But sometime between 1990 and 2005, all of a sudden those neighborhoods became hot, and TOD was everywhere.

Chicago did not experience any growth boom; it's barely still clinging to its position as America's third-largest city. The transit system was older than Pittsburgh's busway system. Yet TOD still happened. I would imagine, like everything else, that it's just delayed in Pittsburgh.