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Old 06-15-2011, 11:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Just a side note, but in a lot of Great Lakes cities there used to be more dense housing, including rowhouses, that has since been torn down.
Ohio City is an example of density, Great Lakes style. Allentown in Buffalo too. Different from what's here though.
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Chicago (from pittsburgh)
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There is definitely a difference between the "Lake Cities" in the Midwest compared to their Northeast counterparts. I would definitely say Chicago is an exception in many aspects though. It's urban core is certainly dense, as are its many many neighborhoods. Chicago is almost like a mix of Northeast big city character and laid back, roomy, mid-western charm. Chicago does have something that Cleveland and other Great Lakes cities seem to have, which are wide streets and wide sidewalks and a predominant grid pattern.

Chicago *NOTE*- all Chicago photo credits go to i_am_hydrogen, a regular poster in the Chicago forums:- Note density, but wide streets seen in other great lakes cities







Now Cleveland. Note that it also has wide streets but with less density, similar to most other great lakes cities:



Pittsburgh has less of a grid pattern but also has density similar to northeastern cities. Overall I think it has a unique feeling separate from Midwestern and Northeastern cities.
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Old 06-18-2011, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Chicago (from pittsburgh)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
The difference in the built environment between Pittsburgh and Cleveland is directly the result of the built environment.

In Cleveland, most of the heavy industry was in the city proper, and when suburbanization began in the early 20th Century, those who had the means to get away from the heavy industry moved out of the city and created large, old-money suburbs like Cleveland Heights, Shaker Heights and Lakewood. Then, once the middle class had the means to move, they moved away from the heavy industry in the city as well. This is how Cleveland became "the hole filling into the donut."

In Pittsburgh, most of the heavy industry was located in low-lying areas along the rivers, both in the city proper and outside the city. Because the city proper wasn't as heavily industrialized as Cleveland, many upscale neighborhoods developed inside the city, and there was never quite the mad dash by the wealthy into the suburbs like there was in Cleveland. This is why many of Pittsburgh's old-money suburbs like Sewickley and Fox Chapel have had relatively small populations in comparison to Cleveland's old-money suburbs. Only Mt. Lebanon has close to the same combination of size and wealth that the three Cleveland suburbs I mentioned do.

Once the middle class had the means to move, they were primarily moving away from the Monongahela River Valley, which is where most of the heavy industry was. This is why suburbs to the southeast of Pittsburgh like West Mifflin, North Versailles and Forest Hills were among the first to develop after World War II. It's also why the suburbs to the north and west of Pittsburgh are generally newer, because there wasn't nearly as much heavy industry in the Allegheny and Ohio River Valleys to move away from as there was in the Monongahela River Valley. In general, there's a pretty strong correlation between elevation and wealth in the Pittsburgh area. In most cases, the higher the elevation, the wealthier it gets, and the lower the elevation, the poorer it gets. This is generally true in both the city and the suburbs.
yeah this makes sense. If you're familiar with both cities you can see the differences in where the wealth was centered
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForYourLungsOnly View Post
yeah this makes sense. If you're familiar with both cities you can see the differences in where the wealth was centered
Cleveland once had a great deal of wealth along Euclid Avenue, all the way to University Circle. They weren't able to preserve University Circle as a high end residential area, although there are still pockets of wealth there.
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Old 06-18-2011, 07:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForYourLungsOnly View Post
Chicago *NOTE*- all Chicago photo credits go to i_am_hydrogen, a regular poster in the Chicago forums:- Note density, but wide streets seen in other great lakes cities

Now Cleveland. Note that it also has wide streets but with less density, similar to most other great lakes cities:
I see it as Cleveland and Chicago have similar topographies but Chicago is like New York moved to the Midwest while Cleveland is Pittsburgh sized. In other words, Cleveland didn't grow anything like Chicago did so there is much less infill.

Quote:
Pittsburgh has less of a grid pattern but also has density similar to northeastern cities. Overall I think it has a unique feeling separate from Midwestern and Northeastern cities.
Clearly, topography is everything in Pittsburgh. It is limiting but on the bright side, Pittsburgh's landscape is more interesting. Although Cleveland does have a massive lake, but the lake isn't as interesting as an ocean.
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Old 06-18-2011, 08:34 PM
 
Location: South
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I think you guys are making some very fair points.

I also agree that there seems to be many architectural similarities between Cleveland and Cincinnati.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MathmanMathman View Post
Although Cleveland does have a massive lake, but the lake isn't as interesting as an ocean.
And I bet there's some Denver natives who would say the same about your mountains.
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Old 06-18-2011, 10:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksu sucks View Post
I think you guys are making some very fair points.

I also agree that there seems to be many architectural similarities between Cleveland and Cincinnati.



Once you get outside of the core neighborhoods, Cincy is a lot like Cleveland. Inside that core though Cincy is as different from Cleveland as Philly is from Phoenix.

Cincy






There is absolutely nothing in Cleveland that resembles those pics.

This is urbanity, Cleveland style.







There are areas in Cincy where you can find similar stuff.
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Old 06-19-2011, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Chicago (from pittsburgh)
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Cincy actually reminds me a lot more of Pittsburgh than Cleveland
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Chicago (from pittsburgh)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathmanMathman View Post
In other words, Cleveland didn't grow anything like Chicago did so there is much less infill.
Agreed, but Chicago is still less dense than NYC, and one could argue Philly as well; and Pittsburgh, which is technically smaller than Cleveland, has higher density. I think its the Great Lake/Midwest vs. Borderline Northeast styles of development. I don't really care for one over the other. At times I really like the roominess of Midwest cities.
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForYourLungsOnly View Post
Agreed, but Chicago is still less dense than NYC, and one could argue Philly as well; and Pittsburgh, which is technically smaller than Cleveland, has higher density. I think its the Great Lake/Midwest vs. Borderline Northeast styles of development. I don't really care for one over the other. At times I really like the roominess of Midwest cities.
Actually, population density is slightly higher in Chicago. Philly's rowhouse areas are more dense than Chicago's bungalow belt (which is still quite dense), but Philly is famous for it's relative lack of apartment buildings, while Chicago has them in abundance, which boosts their population density above Philly's.
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