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Unread 09-15-2011, 09:58 AM
 
20,274 posts, read 16,412,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enough_Already View Post
I have sat in my car for 45 minutes many times just waiting to get out of a garage.
The only time I have heard of anything remotely like that happening Downtown in an evening is after an event, in a garage located near the event. And in those cases, there won't be street spots available for more than a tiny fraction of the parkers.

Quote:
Businesses in the city will lose many $100 dinner checks or bar tabs over a $5 parking fee
If you think about that claim long enough, you will realize why it really doesn't make much sense.

Anyway, as we have discussed many times now, once parking becomes scarce, you have to charge for it because otherwise the deterrence effects of the inconvenience of overcrowded parking and too many people driving around looking for parking will outweigh the deterrence effects of the parking charge. Whether or not Downtown parking has reached such scarcity levels in the evening in some locations is an empirical question, which can't be decided by assertion on the Internet or hearsay anecdotes.
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Unread 09-15-2011, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Philly
8,163 posts, read 6,167,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
The only time I have heard of anything remotely like that happening Downtown in an evening is after an event, in a garage located near the event. And in those cases, there won't be street spots available for more than a tiny fraction of the parkers.
If you think about that claim long enough, you will realize why it really doesn't make much sense.
Anyway, as we have discussed many times now, once parking becomes scarce, you have to charge for it because otherwise the deterrence effects of the inconvenience of overcrowded parking and too many people driving around looking for parking will outweigh the deterrence effects of the parking charge. Whether or not Downtown parking has reached such scarcity levels in the evening in some locations is an empirical question, which can't be decided by assertion on the Internet or hearsay anecdotes.
you are correct, it shouldn't take that long to get out of a garage normally. and second, that rationale doesn't make sense (which doesn't mean some people don't use it). some people are fundamentally opposed to paying for parking, but you can't please everyone. restaurants could, in fact, strike deals with parking operators to discount parking. say, instead of $5, it's $2 if you spend $50 at nola (for example) provided you get your stub validated. in center city Philadelphia, a place that has already gone through these very arguments (and the number of visitors AND the cost of parking are both much higher now than back in the 90's when it was relatively dead at night) they offer parking deals in conjunction with things like restaurant week
Quote:
Three-course lunch, $20. Three-course dinner, $35. 100+ Restaurants. ...During Restaurant Week the Philadelphia Parking Association and Philadelphia Parking Authority offer parking at a deep discount of $9 or less at dozens of lots and garages all over Center City. All you have to do is present a voucher from a participating restaurant from 5 p.m. -1 a.m. Participating parking facilities will be identified with a Center City District Restaurant Week presented by TD Bank poster at their entrance. Check the map above and the list below for participating facilities. Visit specific parking company’s Web sites for more information.
Center City District / Central Philadelphia Development Corporation Of Philadelphia
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Unread 09-15-2011, 10:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
restaurants could, in fact, strike deals with parking operators to discount parking.
Absolutely, and any competent parking operator should be more than willing to do that, since it helps drive up demand for their product.

Unfortunately, I think we can all agree that right now, we don't have a competent parking operator in charge.

Quote:
in center city Philadelphia, a place that has already gone through these very arguments (and the number of visitors AND the cost of parking are both much higher now than back in the 90's when it was relatively dead at night . . . .
Yeah, if you are aware of how this has all played out in other revitalizing downtown areas in the recent past, you will know that sooner or later (and maybe already), Downtown Pittsburgh will HAVE to charge for evening parking--in fact if it doesn't have to charge for evening parking at some point, something has gone massively wrong with its revitalization efforts.

The long-term question is thus much more not whether parking will cost something, but how to set up the parking system so that is priced appropriately and also otherwise as convenient and flexible as practicable.
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Unread 09-15-2011, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Philly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
The long-term question is thus much more not whether parking will cost something, but how to set up the parking system so that is priced appropriately and also otherwise as convenient and flexible as practicable.
it seems to me that the city should bid out the meter business. I don't mean the lease, but the operator. there should be a publicly issued RFP to find a company to collect revenue for metered spaces...it shouldn't go to the parking authority by default and it doesn't have to.
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Unread 09-15-2011, 11:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Downtown Pittsburgh will HAVE to charge for evening parking--in fact if it doesn't have to charge for evening parking at some point, something has gone massively wrong with its revitalization efforts.

The long-term question is thus much more not whether parking will cost something, but how to set up the parking system so that is priced appropriately and also otherwise as convenient and flexible as practicable.
You're more optimistic about the Dowtown nightlife then I as I never see it reaching anywhere near the level where most all the available parking is in demand like it is during the day unless there is some specific major event in town for a night.

I dont see any huge strides for downtown (admittedly market square has made great progress) until they have a sizable residential contingent living there which I don't see coming anytime soon regardless of the development talk. I truly hope i am wrong on that note because as much as I may disagree on the whole parking thing as it stands now, i would love nothing better to see Pittsburgh's downtown have a return of some outside of work bustle that you see in some of the old photos
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Unread 09-15-2011, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by UKyank View Post
You're more optimistic about the Dowtown nightlife then I as I never see it reaching anywhere near the level where most all the available parking is in demand like it is during the day unless there is some specific major event in town for a night.
I'm sure there will always be a daytime parking surge. But that doesn't mean street parking is always going to be abundant, particularly in the areas where nightlife is concentrated (which aren't necessarily the same areas where the office density is highest).

Quote:
I dont see any huge strides for downtown (admittedly market square has made great progress) until they have a sizable residential contingent living there which I don't see coming anytime soon regardless of the development talk.
Downtown has already changed radically in the last ten years or so, including a lot more residents, so I guess I don't understand why you would be skeptical about that process continuing, particularly when there are indeed a bunch of residential projects in the pipeline.
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Unread 09-15-2011, 12:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Downtown has already changed radically in the last ten years or so, including a lot more residents, so I guess I don't understand why you would be skeptical about that process continuing, particularly when there are indeed a bunch of residential projects in the pipeline.
Because everytime I see a project actually being coming to fruition rather just then a just proposal regarding residential projects downtown, it's always high end (expensive) housing which the way downtown is now I can't see there being super high demand for. Initially I think it would be better to have some relatively inexpensive housing units which would attract people in quickly, which would in turn attract the infrastructure that they would support (normal stuff like a grocery store) which would then in turn make more people want to live there which could naturally drive up prices & create a high end market. I also don't think that downtown shopping is a model of the past, you just need local bodies to support it.

Maybe this isn't feasible because of the costs associated with restoring the buildings.
Are there lower priced options actually available & are all the high end condo type projects that have been completed filled with residents? I truly dont know these answers.
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Unread 09-15-2011, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Philly
8,163 posts, read 6,167,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Downtown has already changed radically in the last ten years or so, including a lot more residents, so I guess I don't understand why you would be skeptical about that process continuing, particularly when there are indeed a bunch of residential projects in the pipeline.
the fact that i's improved despite the parking fiasco and PAT cutbacks should speak to the strength of the underlying trend.
UK-AFAIK the condos are selling slowly and the apartments are renting quickly. there are a number of penn ave projects slated for this year though I think the PMC conversion is the most substantial project to come online this year. What are there, 4000 residents? so adding 400 in a year is 10% growth.
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Unread 09-15-2011, 12:25 PM
 
20,274 posts, read 16,412,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UKyank View Post
Because everytime I see a project actually being coming to fruition rather just then a just proposal regarding residential projects downtown, it's always high end (expensive) housing
Are you including Market Square Place in that category? That might be an example of what you are looking for.

Quote:
which the way downtown is now I can't see there being super high demand for.
All the rentals seem to go immediately. Condo sales slowed down recently, but that isn't specific to Downtown.
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Unread 09-15-2011, 12:32 PM
 
3,069 posts, read 1,568,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Are you including Market Square Place in that category? That might be an example of what you are looking for.
l
Yes, that's more like it, I didn't know about this project.
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