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Old 01-27-2012, 11:39 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
11,530 posts, read 7,770,118 times
Reputation: 3982

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuburbanPioneer View Post
Hmm, let me try to see if I understood you by providing another analogy:

I have a full time job and bring home $1000 after taxes. I put all my monthly expenses on a credit card such that at the end of the month I spend $1,000.
Things don't go well at the company and my salary is reduced to $800. Now I am $200 short on my card bill.

Is it entirely my fault for not budgeting accordingly? You bet!
And the light shines in the darkness.

Seriously, I was truly thinking I was alone in feeling that PAT's expenditures are completely out of line. It IS a business. Sure there are some subsidies, but not to blame the source of this shortfall is a joke.

Truly amazing some folks and brian can go to bat for PAT's mismanagement. I don't think I will ever understand that stuff, but that is what makes the world go round. Just glad they aren't running my expenses and income at my home.
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:41 AM
 
20,274 posts, read 18,607,012 times
Reputation: 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
I don't think I will ever understand that stuff
Obviously not.
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Mexican War Streets
1,322 posts, read 887,445 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Okay, lets try it from YOUR view, shall we.

1. Seems you are okay with drivers making over $80K a year. I know a driver and that is what he made.
2. Seems you are okay with the current pensions ex-PAT employees are enjoying.
3. Seems you are okay with the cuts in routes because that is the obvious byproduct of the spending practices.

This must be your view, since you are making fun of mine. I have a very simple view of all this. The new tax revenues can't even cover the mess. There needs to be more money coming from somewhere. You obviously feel the past and current practices are fine and all is great. Guess I am looking at it from a more proactive way.

Good luck trying to convince me of your way of thinking. Lets just agree to disagree and call it a day, shall we.
You consistently demonstrate an inability to understand and represent the views of others. At no point have I indicated support for any of the 3 numbered strawmen that you list above, I simply don't find them particularly germane to the current funding crisis PAT finds itself in as has been explained countless times in this thread. A distinction which you've, one can only assume intentionally, ignored throughout.

I do "make fun" of your views because their detached from reality and ill-conceived but I don't believe that I misrepresent them, their lack of merit needs no bolstering. Furthermore, it's been my experience that suggesting to "agree to disagree" is the last gasp of a participant who's been forced into untenable positions and recognizes their folly or one who simply cannot understand the true nature of the disagreement. I'll leave you to decide which camp you fall into. Suffice it to say, it is unsurprising to me that you recommend that course so often; although I admit to not anticipating that level of self-awareness from you.
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Mexican War Streets
1,322 posts, read 887,445 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuburbanPioneer View Post
Hmm, let me try to see if I understood you by providing another analogy:

I have a full time job and bring home $1000 after taxes. I put all my monthly expenses on a credit card such that at the end of the month I spend $1,000.
Things don't go well at the company and my salary is reduced to $800. Now I am $200 short on my card bill.

Is it entirely my fault for not budgeting accordingly? You bet!
To answer your initial question, it is clear from your counter-analogy that you do not understand the problem. Perhaps you will read the linked articles and reports to gain a fuller appreciation of the issues?

It's a tortured analogy since there is no need for a credit card, presumably your job is not your raison d'etre as public transit is PAT's and your "company" is a governmental entity of whose laws you are a creature.
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:54 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
11,530 posts, read 7,770,118 times
Reputation: 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobick View Post
I do "make fun" of your views
Last I checked that was not only against forum rules, but it also doesn't show any solutions. You must feel PAT's ways are okay, or you wouldn't continually attack me personally about my views.
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:00 PM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
11,530 posts, read 7,770,118 times
Reputation: 3982
How about blaming the state to allow PAT to strike which gives all the power to the union and no power to the people? Would anyone buy that idea? Seems anything I propose is met with total resistance from two people. Maybe there is a tiny bit of common ground. I mean, I don't like huge taxes and no growth and the other two people seem to love bigger taxes, government and slow or no growth, I guess?
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Mexican War Streets
1,322 posts, read 887,445 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Last I checked that was not only against forum rules, but it also doesn't show any solutions. You must feel PAT's ways are okay, or you wouldn't continually attack me personally about my views.
Right...you're sensitive. As stated, I attack your views as "detached from reality and ill-conceived". I would not think it is a personal attack to point out the lack of their merit. I weep that any poster holds them, not just you.

Solutions (as have been stated before but you don't read the threads):
The governor should act on the recommendations of his own commission and join in the bi-partisan efforts in Harisburg to restore the funding to PAT that was promised but not provided.

That gets us past the imminent PAT funding crisis and would stave off service reductions. I'll be happy to debate the long-term relevance and outlook of PAT as long as you agree to stop conflating the issues.

Last edited by Lobick; 01-27-2012 at 12:15 PM..
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:07 PM
 
3,574 posts, read 2,174,694 times
Reputation: 2015
If the state is not going to fund PATs budget shorts and not allow it to declare bankruptcy then I'd much rather see it just go away quickly and a replacement start anew with a service that's not strapped with prior costs rather then the alternatives of either seeing die a slow death of ever increasing route cuts & fare increases as those legacy costs take an increasing bite out of their budget or the other alternative of coming up with all kinds of new local taxes to fund the budget shortfalls.
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:08 PM
 
20,274 posts, read 18,607,012 times
Reputation: 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
How about blaming the state to allow PAT to strike which gives all the power to the union and no power to the people?
I'm not "totally resistant" to this idea, but I do think you need to be careful what you wish for. State law prevents public safety workers (e.g., police and fire) from striking, but then mandates that their labor disputes go to binding arbitration, and historically they have done quite well for themselves in arbitration. Treating PAT workers in the same way may not generate the cost-saving results you are hoping for.
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Mexican War Streets
1,322 posts, read 887,445 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by UKyank View Post
If the state is not going to fund PATs budget shorts and not allow it to declare bankruptcy then I'd much rather see it just go away quickly and a replacement start anew with a service that's not strapped with prior costs rather then the alternatives of either seeing die a slow death of ever increasing route cuts & fare increases as those legacy costs take an increasing bite out of their budget or the other alternative of coming up with all kinds of new local taxes to fund the budget shortfalls.
So, you're proposing a bankruptcy without calling it a bankruptcy? Obviously something needs to be done as the current situation is untenable. It seems self-evident to me that in the 21st century public transit will play an increasingly important role in our region's economic growth outlook and that allowing PAT to atrophy would not be a desirable outcome.
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