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Old 02-21-2012, 01:25 PM
 
5,274 posts, read 1,656,490 times
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Quote:
However, the point I am making is that cutting transit services while leaving legacy costs untouched is not a good way to build a constituency for cutting legacy costs so that we can increase transit services. You may insist that there is something "obviously wrong" about that logic, but I would suggest that as a first order approximation, if you want to cut legacy costs and increase services, you should probably be trying to actually do that, not the exact opposite.
Continuing to feed the dragon (legacy costs) via a different form of revenue (state transportation funds rather than transit fares) will NEVER result in lower legacy costs. The pensioners will continue to take their loot however its proferred. Using a new shell in the shell game lets them continue their game and does not solve the problem.

Pretending that such a strategy will result in lower legacy costs and then declaring any strategy that seeks to stop feeding the dragon is bad, evil, illogical.... is really quite stupid.

But this is the game you play here on this board. Anyone who opposes your ideas is presented by you as illogical. It's a silly game and I won't play.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Wilkinsburg
1,661 posts, read 1,227,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goinback2011 View Post
Pretending that such a strategy will result in lower legacy costs and then declaring any strategy that seeks to stop feeding the dragon is bad, evil, illogical.... is really quite stupid.
Note that the impending cuts in state funding are in no way a "strategy that seeks to stop feeding the dragon."
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:58 PM
 
20,274 posts, read 17,937,512 times
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Originally Posted by Goinback2011 View Post
Continuing to feed the dragon (legacy costs) via a different form of revenue (state transportation funds rather than transit fares) will NEVER result in lower legacy costs.
But why can't you admit that logic works in reverse as well? Shifting more of PAT's funding from state funding to transit fares, or indeed to no replacement source of funding at all, ALSO won't result in cutting legacy costs.

I honestly don't understand what is so hard to grasp about all this. State law makes paying the legacy costs non-discretionary: those costs must get paid before any transit services are provided. When that is the situation, funding cuts don't come out of legacy costs, they come out of transit services.

So it is not that I oppose cutting PAT's legacy costs. I just don't see how cutting funding for transit services but leaving those legacy costs untouched achieves that end. And the political argument--at some point transit users will rise up and FORCE the state to changes those laws--seems obviously nonsensical, particularly in light of the fact that has already been going on for a long time with no sign of that strategy working.

Quote:
Pretending that such a strategy will result in lower legacy costs . . .
OK, so do you just feel free to attribute to people the exact opposite of what they have said? Do you consider that appropriate behavior in a civil conversation?

Because I have said in no uncertain terms that I am not pretending that manipulating PAT's funding levels gets you a solution to their legacy cost problems. That's the exact opposite of the point I have repeatedly made, which is that manipulating PAT's funding levels can't solve that problem, and instead the legacy cost problem will have to be approached directly.

Quote:
and then declaring any strategy that seeks to stop feeding the dragon is bad, evil, illogical.... is really quite stupid.
Except your strategy does not involve cutting off food to the dragon, if by that you mean PAT's legacy costs.

The situation is something like this: there is a dragon (legacy costs) and a captured princess (the princess represents actual transit services), who have been put into the same dungeon by the evil king (that would be state law).

Unfortunately, the dragon and the princess get fed out of the same bowl, and by edict of the evil king, the dragon gets to eat until it is full, leaving only the scraps for the princess, who is starving. We both agree this is a problem.

My solution is to get the evil king to stop mandating that the dragon gets to eat first--which won't be easy, but it needs to be done.

Your solution is to put less food in the bowl, apparently with the hope that if you can just starve the princess enough, she will somehow rise up and slay the dragon with her bare hands.

And my point is that if starving the princess would lead to her slaying the dragon, she would already have done it, and starving her even more is not going to strengthen her for such a fight.

And your response is that if I don't think starving the princess even more is a good idea, I must be related to the dragon.

Quote:
Anyone who opposes your ideas is presented by you as illogical. It's a silly game and I won't play.
There are lots of logically coherent ways in which someone could disagree with me. For example, if you really hate the princess and would just as soon see her starve to death, then it is logical for you to put less food in the bowl without doing anything about the dragon. Now I would suggest that is a bad thing to do, because I am pro-princess and not anti-princess, but that wouldn't be illogical for an anti-princess sort.

What is illogical is insisting that starving the princess to death is a pro-princess policy. And what is further illogical is insisting that if I oppose starving the princess to death while the dragon gets to eat its full, I must be secretly pro-dragon.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:23 PM
PDF
 
2,282 posts, read 1,587,592 times
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I'm sort of interested to know how these service cuts would affect someone who has Pittsburgh on their short list of cities to move to. Looking at the routes that would get cut, etc - it just looks like it would almost be a bad idea to move here now. Yes, I am referring to living in the city without a car.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:25 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 4,102,581 times
Reputation: 1224
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
I was terrified while driving over bridges here in PA for a very long time after that tragedy. 13 people lost their lives and 145 people were injured (who knows how many hundreds more were traumatized?) all because politicians in the State of Minnesota were afraid to raise new revenues to fund necessary infrastructural maintenance and repairs. Sounds a lot like our current administration in PA, but I digress.



Perhaps I'm just an annoying liberal pansy, but I'd rather pay higher taxes to prevent something like this from occurring here in PA. For such an "advanced" nation we certainly have our priorities in the trash. We're more focused on trying to prevent Adam and Steve from getting hitched or voting on American Idol than we are finding viable solutions to our infrastructural and transportation crises.

P.S. Yes, that is a school bus you see dangling in the background.
How much money is the government spending to prevent gay marriage and how much are we spending on roads and bridges?
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
11,093 posts, read 7,202,083 times
Reputation: 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDF View Post
I'm sort of interested to know how these service cuts would affect someone who has Pittsburgh on their short list of cities to move to. Looking at the routes that would get cut, etc - it just looks like it would almost be a bad idea to move here now. Yes, I am referring to living in the city without a car.
Live close to the busway, that would be safer. Better yet, learn to ride a bike. Cycling is on your own terms and it can be done. Depending on where you work, you can ride year around. I plan on riding 100% of the time at some point. I am up tow well over 80% at the moment.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:22 PM
 
3,940 posts, read 2,962,237 times
Reputation: 1563
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDF View Post
I'm sort of interested to know how these service cuts would affect someone who has Pittsburgh on their short list of cities to move to. Looking at the routes that would get cut, etc - it just looks like it would almost be a bad idea to move here now. Yes, I am referring to living in the city without a car.
Unless you have a lot of business to do have 10PM, I don't think the East End is really losing service a great deal of service. It's definitely a factor for some of the suburbs, or less flashy or sought after neighborhoods like Fineview or Banksville, though.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:39 PM
 
Location: Umbrosa Regio
1,334 posts, read 728,810 times
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I'm sure the presence of Pitt, CMU, and Chatham have a lot to do with the relative remaining strength of the 71s and 61s.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:45 PM
 
20,274 posts, read 17,937,512 times
Reputation: 2820
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDF View Post
I'm sort of interested to know how these service cuts would affect someone who has Pittsburgh on their short list of cities to move to. Looking at the routes that would get cut, etc - it just looks like it would almost be a bad idea to move here now. Yes, I am referring to living in the city without a car.
In the City, they are trying to cut routes where there are at least some alternatives.

But they aren't pretending there will be enough capacity on those back-up routes to accommodate all the displaced riders--some popular buses are already filling up and skipping stops, and we would likely see a lot more of that.
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Old 02-22-2012, 02:45 AM
 
4,633 posts, read 4,495,069 times
Reputation: 1971
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDF View Post
I'm sort of interested to know how these service cuts would affect someone who has Pittsburgh on their short list of cities to move to. Looking at the routes that would get cut, etc - it just looks like it would almost be a bad idea to move here now. Yes, I am referring to living in the city without a car.
You have to excuse some of folks on this board they still don't get the Serverity of these Transit cuts and continue to just gloss over it like as if it will be no big deal.

I would take Pittsburgh off your short list if your dependent on Public Transit until after we see what will happen with PAT...Truth of the matter is if Pittsburgh loses Public Transit with 5$ a gallon gas looming and Parkways that take hours to get into the city around the clock...the region is going to be FINISHED again, just like the 1980's Steel Collapse there will be a mass exodus of employers and people in this region...people think I'm over-reacting but every Pittsburgh talking-head in the media pretty much says the same thing. THIS CITY IS DONE!

Last edited by Blackbeauty212; 02-22-2012 at 02:56 AM..
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