You think its bad for PAT now, it's about to get A LOT WORSE! (Philadelphia: nightlife, design)

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I still think that is better than his previous line (which was that PAT's problems were a local problem). Again, it gives him a way to claim to his Tea-Party-type supporters that his strategy of delaying action provided a "win" (in the form of what he will describe as coerced labor concessions), in the event he finally authorizes action.

That said, it is clear Corbett would prefer to do nothing if he thought he could get away with it, and will try to minimize whatever does happen. So all we can do is try to make it clear to him that he won't get away with doing nothing, and hope he can be dragged kicking and screaming to some sort of stop-gap measure.

So while he's willing to sink the 2 main economic engines of the state by suffocating their Transit systems....(Yes SEPTA will be along to play shortly)..To pander to a niche constituents that isn't anywhere near the majority of the voting block in PA??????

As Joe Scarborough said "Crazy can't win Elections"......And this is beyond Crazy.

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by UKyank

Are fares the same all the time? It should be higher at peak (rush hour) times and cheaper other times. And no, I'm not saying to just keep jacking up fare prices but fare raising us a legitimate conversation to have when applicable.

Is there a comparative list of average fares for mass transit by city anywhere?

The average should be somewhere around 2$, I would guess, and Pittsburgh is already above that at 2.25...3.25 if you need a transfer or in zone 2.

[robrobrob]

I think everyone is looking at this the wrong way. The argument could be made that most of the state doesn't care about public transit in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia. A lot of people in Allegheny County don't even care about public transit. So, the argument can be made that the Tea Party isn't to blame but the people who don't ride public transit in our two big cities and don't care if the PAT and SEPTA go under.

Again, I am baffled that the union is so slow to agree to concessions without which a lot of (union members) people will lose jobs. Of course they don't care if service is cut but the public does and the public should be pressing for cuts to ensure that our service will not be cut drastically.

[UKyank]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

The average should be somewhere around 2$, I would guess, and Pittsburgh is already above that at 2.25...3.25 if you need a transfer or in zone 2.

I can't find any fare averages- my random google sampling came up with:

City. Per Ride Cost (cash). Monthly Pass
NYC. $2.50. $104
Boston. 1.50. 40
Chicago. 2.25 86
Charlotte. 1.75. 70
Atlanta. 2.50. 90
San Diego. 2.50. 72
Denver. 2.25. 79
Jacksonville. 1.50. 50
Milwaukee. 2.25. 64

(well the formatting got all out of wack, but should still convey what's its listing)

[squarian]

Originally Posted by UKyank

NYC. $2.50. $104
Boston. 1.50. 40
Chicago. 2.25 86
Charlotte. 1.75. 70
Atlanta. 2.50. 90
San Diego. 2.50. 72
Denver. 2.25. 79
Jacksonville. 1.50. 50
Milwaukee. 2.25. 64

Toronto $3.00/$115.50

(since the CDN is basically at par with USD now, I won't bother to convert currency)

edit: The basic monthly pass is $126, but TTC has a lower-priced "Metro Discount Plan" which is basically an auto-payed annual subscription, with the wrinkle that the pass is transferable among friends, family, pets and apparently even strangers if you trust people to give it back (but only outside stations - no "pass backs" over the turnstile!)

[captainmidnight]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

Sorry Folks, but The Burgh is DOOMED!



And this whole "Waiting to see what the union gives back" is just a stalling tactic on his part, and something to blame come time to run for re-election...

Boy I hope Pittsburghers aren't Dumb enough to fall for that line once he start spouting that BS.

It probably is a stall tactic, but I really don't like his statement that essentially says that he doesn't want to do anything until he sees how the contract talks go. What is the baseline for the result of the talks? What if concessions do happen and it is a good deal for PAT and the union and Corbett comes out and says, "Sorry, that isn't enough". I wouldn't put it past him. I hope they can include him on contract talks so PAT and the union know exactly what the Governor is looking for.

There are people in the city and county that don't use transit, never have and never will. They wouldn't care if the city and region took a big step backwards until they saw a report on the news (after the weather report, of course) that the transit cuts caused our region to go backwards or if the downturn in the local economy affected them personally. Its a shame thing work like that, but they unfortunately do.

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

I think everyone is looking at this the wrong way. The argument could be made that most of the state doesn't care about public transit in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia. A lot of people in Allegheny County don't even care about public transit. So, the argument can be made that the Tea Party isn't to blame but the people who don't ride public transit in our two big cities and don't care if the PAT and SEPTA go under.

But its Pittsburgh and Philadelphia's economies that full the state's tax base...So the staying "As goes Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, Goes Pennsylvania" definitely applies here.

They may not care now, but once the ripple affect gets going they will care a lot as it will start to effect them...Also it isn't about just transit, its Roads and Bridges again mostly paid for from tax dollars generated by the 2 big cities.

Again, I am baffled that the union is so slow to agree to concessions without which a lot of (union members) people will lose jobs. Of course they don't care if service is cut but the public does and the public should be pressing for cuts to ensure that our service will not be cut drastically.

Because this round of "give backs" there looking to come from the Retiree's not the current work staff, and you're going to see a much bigger fight from them rather than working employees, since retiree's aren't looking to save their jobs....

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by bmantz65

There are people in the city and county that don't use transit, never have and never will. They wouldn't care if the city and region took a big step backwards until they saw a report on the news (after the weather report, of course) that the transit cuts caused our region to go backwards or if the downturn in the local economy affected them personally. Its a shame thing work like that, but they unfortunately do.

You mean until they can't figure out why the Parkway West is backed to Montour Run at 7am every morning, when just few years ago it was only to far side of Greentree Hill. All the mean while they watch that 5$ a gallon gas in the tank burn off like a brush fire on the dashboard.

This is the out of touch dumbness that Gov DoNothing is hoping will get him re-elected as he puts up smokescreens blaming everything but his willingness to take leadership in the situation....Hell he might even try to blame Rendell if he can get away with it.

[pman]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

I think everyone is looking at this the wrong way. The argument could be made that most of the state doesn't care about public transit in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia. A lot of people in Allegheny County don't even care about public transit. So, the argument can be made that the Tea Party isn't to blame but the people who don't ride public transit in our two big cities and don't care if the PAT and SEPTA go under.

Again, I am baffled that the union is so slow to agree to concessions without which a lot of (union members) people will lose jobs. Of course they don't care if service is cut but the public does and the public should be pressing for cuts to ensure that our service will not be cut drastically.

yeah, the tea party argument is misapplying national trends to the state. corbett, by all counts, dances to the beat his own drummer no matter what either party (or grover) thinks. even rendell, who clearly supported transit, couldn't get anything done. the legislature is very different than ny where nyc can jam anything down the rest of the state's throat and there's good and bad aspects to that. back in the 80's a much larger slice came from the feds, as that slice shrank, the state has never been able to agree on a way to replace it. oddly, although rural folks think transit is welfare, corbett's transportation secretary is the only one I remember actually stating that rural roads require greater subsidies than transit.
as for riding, I think you have a point here. I see a lot of empty PAT buses. one of the reasons SEPTA has been able to ride this out so far is strong ridership that offset rising costs (SEPTA also was less of a financial basket case in years past so it had a reserve fund and little debt...PAT was the opposite...for SEPTA, it's mainly about lacking capital to maintain the infrastructure (although rising fuel is likely to put a dent in cost recovery). I had hoped Onorato would be able to accept the concessions and increase the county funding which would have shown a commitment to transit and also at least mitigated some of the problems. if it were me, there would be concessions, but also a plan to cut long term operating costs via rationalizataion (TDP) and a capital program (ie replacing bus routes with a rail line where ridership dictates). Of course, it's not me, so there's that.

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by pman

yeah, the tea party argument is misapplying national trends to the state. corbett, by all counts, dances to the beat his own drummer no matter what either party (or grover) thinks. even rendell, who clearly supported transit, couldn't get anything done. the legislature is very different than ny where nyc can jam anything down the rest of the state's throat and there's good and bad aspects to that. back in the 80's a much larger slice came from the feds, as that slice shrank, the state has never been able to agree on a way to replace it. oddly, although rural folks think transit is welfare, corbett's transportation secretary is the only one I remember actually stating that rural roads require greater subsidies than transit.
as for riding, I think you have a point here. I see a lot of empty PAT buses. one of the reasons SEPTA has been able to ride this out so far is strong ridership that offset rising costs (SEPTA also was less of a financial basket case in years past so it had a reserve fund and little debt...PAT was the opposite...for SEPTA, it's mainly about lacking capital to maintain the infrastructure (although rising fuel is likely to put a dent in cost recovery). I had hoped Onorato would be able to accept the concessions and increase the county funding which would have shown a commitment to transit and also at least mitigated some of the problems. if it were me, there would be concessions, but also a plan to cut long term operating costs via rationalizataion (TDP) and a capital program (ie replacing bus routes with a rail line where ridership dictates). Of course, it's not me, so there's that.

Buses can't be that empty considering Pittsburgh is a top 10 city for public transit usage....and the who knows the empty buses could a cause and effect of how unreliable and such a mess the system is now that people that can drive are choosing to do so now.

Sorry to say but I think Pittsburgh needs to lose its mass transit system before people will wake up and understand how important it is to the regions economy and livability......

I just feel at that point it will be to late the damage will have been done there will be no coming back from this. Once service is gone, its not that easy to get it back.

It's like you can see the cliff coming yet you're still humming along at 75mph.