Pgh Public Schools to lay off a lot of people. Wow (Pittsburgh: credit, home)

[BrianTH]

If only we had a mechanism by which we could determine appropriate compensation for teachers, something like a system of negotiated agreements between both sides, organized so as to have equivalent bargaining power.

[gg]

Originally Posted by squarian

Of course, there is the possibility that the political structure is so hopelessly corrupt that those insurance billions can simply buy immunity and preserve a system which benefits no one but themselves.

In that dire case, there aren't really many alternatives: either revolution or slow decline and eventual collapse seem the likeliest.

It has proven very hard to battle the biggest dogs. Top on the list are your oil companies. Remember what happened when Jimmy Carter messed with them. Ouch. I don't think the Insurance industry has near that might, but they aren't exactly some small player.

[gg]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Of course he got handed the wheel when the ship was already over the falls.



You can roll your eyes all you want, but this is what happened:

That chart could be misleading, but it is too early to get a feel if all will work out in the end. The economy is still in a bit of a gray area. Obama pumped our economy with money, which is like living on a credit card for a while. Will all that work? The jury is still out on that, but at least there is some hope. Wall Street has reacted well, considering where bush took it.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

That chart could be misleading, but it is too early to get a feel if all will work out in the end.

I agree that you can't look at just that chart and get a sense of where we will go from here. And again, it isn't helping the situation that some people with a great deal of influence over policy--to the point of having veto power over crucial areas--are more interested in defeating Obama than helping the economy.

But that chart is very useful to rebut a particular talking point, namely the common talking point that once Obama took office, the economic situation got worse. That is a laughably false talking point, which the chart makes clear.

[SteelCityRising]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Of course he got handed the wheel when the ship was already over the falls.

You can roll your eyes all you want, but this is what happened:

But, but, but...Democrats are ruining our country, you crazy East End lib! Graphs make no sense to me! I know all I want to know, and that is that President George W. Bush was our Messiah!

[Bong477]

You're a little off on a few points. Medicare doesn't reduce costs by bargaining with healthcare providers to get a volume discount, they tell healthcare providers how much they are going to pay and they can take it or leave it. If it weren't for the higher payments by private insurance, most offices wouldn't be able to function and the rest wouldn't make nearly as much money.

Other governments have indeed lower healthcare costs, that's not in debate. The evidence is clear that healthcare costs more in the U.S. Whether the quality of care is as good in other countries and whether it would continue to be as good if the U.S. stopped spending so much money (since the U.S. where a lot of medical device and drug profits are derived from thus allowing further R&D that other countries benefit from) is debatable and probably not something you can definitely prove unless it happens (and even then it would be hard to show cause and effect). In healthcare metrics, other countries do some things better, the U.S. does others. What's the better quality of care, that's a loaded question that there isn't an absolute truth to.

There is evidence that a more socialized version of healthcare works reasonably well at a lower cost in other countries, but that's irrelevant to whether the U.S. government is capable of doing it. I don't see it as possible, again based on the lack of ability to solve other complex problems and their past role in making healthcare what it is today.

[squarian]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

If only we had a mechanism by which we could determine appropriate compensation for teachers, something like a system of negotiated agreements between both sides, organized so as to have equivalent bargaining power.

Nah - it'd be much cheaper for the taxpayer to staff schools with convicts. Put those criminal scum to work educating our children, dammit! This madness of paying teachers must stop.

[TelecasterBlues]

Originally Posted by squarian

Double-check your sources. You're referring to the Senate version, SB 1, which would have indeed eventually extended vouchers to all residents regardless of income, and which as you say has bogged down on this point. Christiana's bill, which represents a new initiative in the House, limits vouchers to "poor students in failing schools" (quoting the Scott Detrow article I linked above).



Feel free to review my posts here over the last several months. You may come to feel that I am not the strongest of the Governor's supporters. You may even find I am a critic of the Guv's proposed cuts in education spending.




Then your district (though perhaps not individual schools) would likely not be eligible for the vouchers under Christiana's bill. I haven't yet read through the entire bill, so I come to this conclusion from the reportage. Assuming the bill is limited as reported in the press, do you remain opposed to it in principle? If so, what is your solution for zombie districts or the simple injustice of forcing people who have no other option to receive such a substandard education?

Nope, you've said the magic word in "Christiana's bill".....that's the single one that I actually can view myself supporting as it does what it intends to. From a personal standpoint, I couldn't care less about being affected by any of this since there isn't anything in the way of a local charter school in the area that my district covers...but I'm just trying to use it as an example to show what could happen depending on how the morons in Harrisburg set things up. Using the system to allow kids the chance to escape an unsafe hell hole is one thing, but taking advantage of districts that are attempting to deal with harsh cuts is another. The Republican agenda scares the hell out of me at the moment...it's never a good thing when radical ideals from either end of the spectrum gain majority power and have the freedom to do whatever they want.

Aside from Christiana's proposal...there's easily somewhere north of 5 others floating around too that are every bit as pathetic as Senate Bill 1. Some of these proposals don't even have a total figure calculated for costs and yet we're harping on the budget and the need to be fiscally responsible. But I think we're actually on the same page for the most part when it comes to intent behind Christiana's Bill. In particular, this has to be my favorite explanation for why SB-1 and the overall idea behind this movement are complete failures: Pennsylvania's school voucher legislation isn't about low-income students | PennLive.com

Vouchers scare me in particular because it seems as if nobody really has a grasp on exactly how this will work, who it will effect, which schools or kids will even see the money, and worst of all...what in the world this will cost the people in tax-dollars. Who cares about passing the thing with the current budget so that Corbett has something to brag about to the media...officials need to take their time with this and make sure that it's actually done right and helps the kids who need it as opposed to simply serving as a handout to the Charter companies and kids who are already enrolled and come from relatively well-off families. It's a mess and needs time to sort everything out so that the end product isn't a hypocritical piece of legislation that fails the public and hurts the education system even more.

[gg]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I agree that you can't look at just that chart and get a sense of where we will go from here. And again, it isn't helping the situation that some people with a great deal of influence over policy--to the point of having veto power over crucial areas--are more interested in defeating Obama than helping the economy.

But that chart is very useful to rebut a particular talking point, namely the common talking point that once Obama took office, the economic situation got worse. That is a laughably false talking point, which the chart makes clear.

I agree that chart shows a better path. My point was a credit card for an economy isn't good, but it may be the only answer and could pay big dividends in a few years. I would much rather we spend borrowed money in the US than overseas which seemed to be what our past president loved to do. It makes me sick to think about, but what is done is what is done.

[FrannyBear]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Of course he got handed the wheel when the ship was already over the falls.



You can roll your eyes all you want, but this is what happened:



Edit: By the way, of course the President of the United States doesn't have dictatorial powers. Metaphorically, there are a lot of other hands on that captain's wheel. And it doesn't help when some of the people with their hands on the wheel are more concerned about getting the captain fired than about where the ship is heading.

Just as I predicted -- you guys think you can just keep blaming George Bush for your own man's failed policies and no one will call you out on it. The majority of people get it -- he promised "change" and the only change they got was a much worse economy. ALL of his policies have taken a bad situation and made it worse. He has ignored the jobs issue until it is at a crisis point and then has no real solutions -- none at all. His stimulus was a flop -- just more money up the chute. And he refuses to stop spending money the country does not have.

Accept a little responsibility for his failures. He is a disaster.

Frankly -- it will all work out at the election booth. People are fed up -- he has lost the independents. Yes, the die-hard liberals will continue to drink the kool aid and invoke George Bush's name and try to make it stick, but it stinks of desperation, really.

And I can dig up charts too that prove all my points many times over -- not going to bore the board.

Guess it's time to go feed my chickens, clean my guns and watch Hee Haw while you brainiacs keep running the country into the ground.