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Old 06-30-2011, 08:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
As another poster noted above, this sort of argument largely depends on the belief that the criminal justice system is getting this issue wrong under the old law
I was thinking more along the lines of civil trials as it gives you an affirmative defense & civil immunity, rather than then criminal implications.
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Old 06-30-2011, 08:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UKyank View Post
I was thinking more along the lines of civil trials as it gives you an affirmative defense & civil immunity, rather than then criminal implications.
In legitimate self-defense cases you would have a defense under the old law too. Again, the question is whether there was actually a problem with adjudicating such cases under the old law, criminal or civil, such that changing the law was necessary.

In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So how was the old law broke (not in theory, but in actual practice)?
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Old 06-30-2011, 09:37 AM
 
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I'd imagine the new law has more to do with appealing to a certain political base than anything else.
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Hempfield Twp
781 posts, read 1,271,898 times
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Yep Sammy, and I love it.

But seriously, this extends one's "Castle" to where that person has a legal right to be. Also, the protection from civil suit in the event of a no-bill (ie. justified homicide) is an important protection for law-abiding citizens.

As far as someone breaking into my house uninvited, especially in the wee hours of the morning, personally, I am not stopping to ask whether they are there to rape my wife, abduct my children, steal my wife's jewelry or the TV or simply looking for a sandwich and a drink; they will be dead, dead, dead and I will be on the phone with 911 telling them to also send the coroner.

Things happen so fast and if you hesitate in this type of situation, you may be the one meeting your maker rather than the criminal that has entered your home illegally.

Being out on the street walking with my family or with a group of friends, I should be under no requirement to retreat if I am legally carrying and a perp or group of perps trys to mug me with a weapon in hand. If they aren't armed or are armed minimally compared to what I have concealed (bat, knife, ax), personally, I would back off and turn away and if they chose to pursue the matter and escalate, at that point, I conside my life in danger and the world will be minus 1 or more criminals.

If I am presented with the above situation and the perp or group of them has firearms and has the drop on me, I will very likely give in to their demands esp. if it seems as though they will "take the money and run" and I will report the incident. That is rolling the dice because they could very well be so callous as to not care that you gave them the money and shoot you anyway but in that situation, your chances are better just giving into their demands.

There are so many situations that could come up where the last scenario would change but no need to go over all of them. Common sense goes a long way in these instances and it is good to know as long as I am confident that I will be pulling the trigger as a last resort when my life was truely in danger, the law is there backing me up.
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:05 AM
 
1,714 posts, read 2,197,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hempfield mania View Post
Yep Sammy, and I love it.
Hey, that's cool. I just hope people realize that's what it is, and don't think it's really going to change that much or that a bunch of lives are going to be saved as a result or anything like that. The real-life difference this law will make (one way or the other) is probably about zero. The Governor will get his picture taken when he's signing the bill, and the anti-gun people will be able to note their outrage to the appropriate papers; everybody's "happy" I guess.

Now I DO think that a lot of people that are REALLY happy about this law have probably seen one too many Die Hard movies. But that's fine I guess.
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:08 AM
 
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Obviously it is hard for some gunowners to grasp that they may end up in the coffin, with the new law providing their killer with added protection precisely because they were carrying.
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Mexican War Streets
1,584 posts, read 1,974,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hempfield mania View Post
Yep Sammy, and I love it.

But seriously, this extends one's "Castle" to where that person has a legal right to be. Also, the protection from civil suit in the event of a no-bill (ie. justified homicide) is an important protection for law-abiding citizens.

As far as someone breaking into my house uninvited, especially in the wee hours of the morning, personally, I am not stopping to ask whether they are there to rape my wife, abduct my children, steal my wife's jewelry or the TV or simply looking for a sandwich and a drink; they will be dead, dead, dead and I will be on the phone with 911 telling them to also send the coroner.

Things happen so fast and if you hesitate in this type of situation, you may be the one meeting your maker rather than the criminal that has entered your home illegally.

Being out on the street walking with my family or with a group of friends, I should be under no requirement to retreat if I am legally carrying and a perp or group of perps trys to mug me with a weapon in hand. If they aren't armed or are armed minimally compared to what I have concealed (bat, knife, ax), personally, I would back off and turn away and if they chose to pursue the matter and escalate, at that point, I conside my life in danger and the world will be minus 1 or more criminals.

If I am presented with the above situation and the perp or group of them has firearms and has the drop on me, I will very likely give in to their demands esp. if it seems as though they will "take the money and run" and I will report the incident. That is rolling the dice because they could very well be so callous as to not care that you gave them the money and shoot you anyway but in that situation, your chances are better just giving into their demands.

There are so many situations that could come up where the last scenario would change but no need to go over all of them. Common sense goes a long way in these instances and it is good to know as long as I am confident that I will be pulling the trigger as a last resort when my life was truely in danger, the law is there backing me up.
Precisely. Fear and Hollywood imagery has brought on this legislation.
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Hempfield Twp
781 posts, read 1,271,898 times
Reputation: 210
Default uhhhh, no...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobick View Post
Precisely. Fear and Hollywood imagery has brought on this legislation.

More like common sense. But, I don't expect much of that from the "other side."

Some examples:

New law expands right to use deadly force in self-defense in Pennsylvania

Even an off duty Philly police officer is being charged for defending himself outside of his own home.

A homeowner was sued for killing an intruder who had a gun. The ruling was in the homeowner's favor but not after he incurred substantial legal fees and had no recourse to go after those "sueing."

And in this instance, the homeowner should be getting a medal, not arrested and charged for attempted murder. What do you think would have happened if the perps were successful in breaching the door and found the homeowner inside? Too bad he wasn't a better shot and killed these two lowlifes.
The 15 yr old girl was unfortunately hanging out with the wrong people and hopefully she will turn her life around.
http://www.katc.com/news/resident-ar...home-invasion/


Hundreds of other cases like this have been fought in the courts over the decades.


Good explanation of the "improvements" made to the "Castle Doctrine," or limited version of it, that PA had in its code.

Pennsylvania Passes Self-Defense Improvement Bill | Monachus Lex

Last edited by hempfield mania; 06-30-2011 at 11:59 AM..
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Mexican War Streets
1,584 posts, read 1,974,415 times
Reputation: 1389
Quote:
Originally Posted by hempfield mania View Post
More like common sense. But, I don't expect much of that from the "other side."

Some examples:

New law expands right to use deadly force in self-defense in Pennsylvania

Even an off duty Philly police officer is being charged for defending himself outside of his own home.

A homeowner was sued for killing an intruder who had a gun. The ruling was in the homeowner's favor but not after he incurred substantial legal fees and had no recourse to go after those "sueing."

Hundreds of other cases like this have been fought in the courts over the decades.


Good explanation of the "improvements" made to the "Castle Doctrine," or limited version of it, that PA had in its code.

Pennsylvania Passes Self-Defense Improvement Bill | Monachus Lex
Forgive me if I don't take the views of the defense attorneys in the above mentioned cases or a summary provided by a website with the tagline "politics, public policy and pistols" and written by this guy Bio | Monachus Lex as dispositive.

I was comforted that "even an off-duty Philly police officer" should be tasked with explaining his actions in a Court of Law. Is your implication that he should be immune from prosecution based on his occupation?

I suspect the old law was only an issue for people like yourself, the real pro-gun fringe, who like to use terms like "perp" and brag about the prospects of calling the coroner.
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Hempfield Twp
781 posts, read 1,271,898 times
Reputation: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobick View Post
Forgive me if I don't take the views of the defense attorneys in the above mentioned cases or a summary provided by a website with the tagline "politics, public policy and pistols" and written by this guy Bio | Monachus Lex as dispositive.

I was comforted that "even an off-duty Philly police officer" should be tasked with explaining his actions in a Court of Law. Is your implication that he should be immune from prosecution based on his occupation?

I suspect the old law was only an issue for people like yourself, the real pro-gun fringe, who like to use terms like "perp" and brag about the prospects of calling the coroner.
I like your use of "fringe." Oh how little you know.
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