Strip District Streetcar (Pittsburgh, York, Penn: buses, transport, suburban)

[BrianTH]

I suspect the idea is ultimately to get a competitive Federal grant for a big chunk of the money.

Anyway, I agree about the development potential in the Allegheny Riverfront, which alters the equation more in favor of some sort of rail.

[pman]

Scenarios can include (but will not be limited to) the following land use and transportation system enhancements:
Traffic calming through lane reduction on Liberty Avenue Bikeway improvements along Penn Avenue A new transit station with associated development along the Martin Luther King, Jr. East Busway at 21st Street Reintroduction of an incline between the Hill District and the Strip District
Introduction of a streetcar loop within the Strip District and Lawrenceville to link the adjacent neighborhoods
Higher mode share for transit and active transportation trips as provided along the Allegheny Riverfront Green Boulevard

a new incline or an opportunity for Brian's Gondola?
ultimately I think the EBA needs to go T style service (to increase the number of available riders per labor hour, if nothing else). a 21st stop is interesting, if challenging.
edited to add: I have ridden the DC Circulator. the one route that has been a big success is the one the runs from union station across town to georgetown...it takes metrocards, runs every 10 minutes, and serves an unmet need on top of being a good tourist line, connecting trains, buses (intercity), hotels, and tourist sites.

[Geeo]

Sounds like it would be more of a "tourist trolley" than real mass transit. To go from the Strip to 40th Street is really not going to serve a very large population base. To spend millions and millions to serve a few loft and condo developments is not the best use of funds. Then there is the issue of getting authority to place tracks in the street, power substation for the caternary, building the caternary, and installing the power lines above. What about street maintenance? Who would be responsible for paving around the tracks? PennDOT? Doubt that they would want to take on any more costs at this point. Who would operate it? The city or the Port Authority? The city does not run the transit system, and I doubt that they would want to get into it given the fiscal contraints they are under. A private developer would be crazy to try this because they'd never make their investment back.

These ideas get floated every couple of years and once people see what's really involved to get something like the off the ground, nothing ever comes of it. Plus there are dozens of buses that already run through that area every day.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Geeo

Sounds like it would be more of a "tourist trolley" than real mass transit. To go from the Strip to 40th Street is really not going to serve a very large population base. To spend millions and millions to serve a few loft and condo developments is not the best use of funds. Then there is the issue of getting authority to place tracks in the street, power substation for the caternary, building the caternary, and installing the power lines above. What about street maintenance? Who would be responsible for paving around the tracks? PennDOT? Doubt that they would want to take on any more costs at this point. Who would operate it? The city or the Port Authority? The city does not run the transit system, and I doubt that they would want to get into it given the fiscal contraints they are under. A private developer would be crazy to try this because they'd never make their investment back.

These ideas get floated every couple of years and once people see what's really involved to get something like the off the ground, nothing ever comes of it. Plus there are dozens of buses that already run through that area every day.

I like the 21st st station component, it's adding some utility to an existing well used line. I agree though, it seems a bus (a nice bus, but a bus nonetheless) would work just as well and be far cheaper...that's what DC did. It could be a PAT run route under contract...targeted at tourists but used by locals as well...running from gateway station to 40th st.

[pman]

why don't they just look to improve the 88?
http://www.portauthority.org/paac/apps/pdfs/88.pdf
http://www.portauthority.org/paac/apps/pdfs/91.pdf

[Impala26]

Ugh, I see both sides of the argument on this issue. I've looked into it, and there will always ALWAYS be some sort of negative stigma associated with buses (no matter how modern) compared to a streetcar. Economically however, trolley-buses or buses with electric motors make a ton more sense because aside from catenary cables in the case of trolley-buses, the infrastructure is already in place to run them.

I will say this: Pittsburgh was once a streetcar capital of the world (it's maximum track mileage was topped only by the cities of Toronto and Chicago in North America), I think it's a wondrous idea to picture some old PCC cars smoothly plying the streets once again. It would be a destination unto itself, and not just for out-of-towners, but even for suburbanites.

[slamont61]

By "Streetcar" they mean Bus.

[BrianTH]

I'd love to see trolleybuses take off in Pittsburgh.

Anyway, I'm a big fan of Busways when they can collect traffic from multiple routes. But that argument doesn't necessarily hold much weight in this particular case, because the East Busway is already available to serve that purpose.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Impala26

Ugh, I see both sides of the argument on this issue. I've looked into it, and there will always ALWAYS be some sort of negative stigma associated with buses (no matter how modern) compared to a streetcar. Economically however, trolley-buses or buses with electric motors make a ton more sense because aside from catenary cables in the case of trolley-buses, the infrastructure is already in place to run them.

I will say this: Pittsburgh was once a streetcar capital of the world (it's maximum track mileage was topped only by the cities of Toronto and Chicago in North America), I think it's a wondrous idea to picture some old PCC cars smoothly plying the streets once again. It would be a destination unto itself, and not just for out-of-towners, but even for suburbanites.

The bridge also served the Pittsburgh Railways streetcar system with a rail line that continued on a loop from the Mt. Washington Transit Tunnel through downtown on Wood Street, Grant Street and Liberty Avenue. The streetcar rail line was abandoned July 3, 1985, when the streetcars were diverted to the Panhandle Bridge and the new light rail subway.

Smithfield Street Bridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I'd love to see trolleybuses take off in Pittsburgh. Anyway, I'm a big fan of Busways when they can collect traffic from multiple routes. But that argument doesn't necessarily hold much weight in this particular case, because the East Busway is already available to serve that purpose.

I wish PAT and SEPTA would consider pooling orders, particularly for trolleybuses. SEPTA has ordered a few but refuses to order more due to cost (despite the admission trolleybuses are cheaper over the long term). I think that adding stops to the east busway and converting it to trolleybuses is a good project. some interesting facts in here, some I knew, and some I didn't

electric trolley buses outdo diesels in performance. They have superior power when fully loaded and good acceleration on hills. They also have a much quieter ride... have a high initial price....more than twice the price of a new diesel bus. .. trolleys last longer. Diesels of the same basic design, which were purchased in the early ‘80s, are long gone. Trolley buses bought at the same time are only just now being retired. The trolley infrastructure costs about US $1.3 million per mile for the overhead alone. On top of that is the cost of substations to distribute the 600v DC power. However, with high-efficiency electric motors, plus regeneration of some power back into the overhead grid during braking, trolleys shine in overall energy impacts. It costs approximately 20 cents per mile to power an electric trolley bus (ETB) compared with about 75 cents per mile for diesels averaged over TransLink’s entire diesel fleet...The new New Flyers [SEPTA's fleet] have a more powerful battery-powered auxiliary motor, which allows them to have their poles pulled and skirt around things that encroach on their lanes, but those motors are only designed for short bursts, perhaps as far as three-quarters of a mile (1 kilometer), depending on grade and loading. This means they cannot re-route for long distances or at a moment’s notice the way diesels can...

Light Rail vs. Trolley Bus - Page 4 - Mass Transit