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Unread 11-04-2011, 11:13 AM
Status: "Maple tree is leafing out!" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
65,531 posts, read 51,866,729 times
Reputation: 17943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krisps View Post
Katiana, the documentary explained that the fall of the steel industry began far before the 70s. I specifically remember some footage of Myron Copes in the documentary explaining this very thing, that it began far before the time period that people typically associate with the decline. But I'm just repeating what I watched, I'm no expert on the topic. I just find Pittsburgh to be very interesting.
Well, yes, some people do date the decline of the steel industry to the strike of 1959, but things carried on pretty much the same for many years thereafter. The crash came in ~ 1982. Perhaps the "documentarians" weren't from Pittsburgh?

@ Geeo and hornet: Yes, there were big rivalries between BF and Aliquippa, also Butler. As BFHS got bigger and bigger, the "Little Mud Jug" game between BF and New Brighton was dropped from the schedule. Now they're playing again.

My dad graduated from BFHS in 1931; football was big even then!
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Unread 11-04-2011, 11:28 AM
 
20,274 posts, read 16,377,004 times
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The NFL was founded in 1920 (as the American Professional Football Conference), and the Steelers were founded in 1933 (as the Pirates). Pro football started becoming very popular post-WWII, in part because of TV (the first televised pro football game was in 1939).

That's not to say HS football wasn't independently popular in this area. Of course HS football is very popular in many other places besides Western PA--I believe it is still the most popular single HS sport in the country. Sort of random, but here is a map of top football recruits produced in 2011 per total HS football players per state:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/footbal...n=ncaaf-319166

As that map suggests, the South probably has the best overall claim to intensity of HS football activity of any U.S. region.

Finally, I think if the Pirates were consistently successful and therefore very popular, we'd likely be talking about things like the long and dignified history of baseball in the region (including minor leagues and Negro Leagues). Again, the NFL really wants us to believe that affection for NFL teams expresses unique local characteristics, but in truth there is very little evidence for that.

Last edited by BrianTH; 11-04-2011 at 11:37 AM..
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Unread 11-04-2011, 11:38 AM
 
4,690 posts, read 1,594,310 times
Reputation: 1560
It is sophistry to date the era of "sophisticated entertainment products being marketed in a coordinated fashion by the league and its many affiliates (including national and local media outlets)" from the founding of the NFL in 1920, the Steelers in 1933, or the first television broadcast of a pro football game in 1939.
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Unread 11-04-2011, 12:10 PM
 
20,274 posts, read 16,377,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
It is sophistry to date the era of "sophisticated entertainment products being marketed in a coordinated fashion by the league and its many affiliates (including national and local media outlets)" from the founding of the NFL in 1920, the Steelers in 1933, or the first television broadcast of a pro football game in 1939.
Why?

People in the 1920s and 1930s were not unsophisticated when it came to marketing. And pro football in particular was able to follow a roadmap established by ML baseball, and indeed by then the media was well-aware of how lucrative promoting professional sports could be.

And in general, this isn't rocket science. Like many team sports, football is structured as a kind of mock tribal warfare. So the idea of popularizing football teams by encouraging tribalism among football fans (even if you don't think of it in those precise terms) is really quite obvious.

Edit: Here is a cool little summary of the history of the symbiotic relationship between media and sports in the United States:

http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~jjgisondi/MediaMade.pdf

Suffice it to say that relationship started long before the 1920s, and indeed by then was entering a "Golden Age" in the words of the author.
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Unread 11-04-2011, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Athens, GA (via Pittsburgh, PA)
8,847 posts, read 6,872,668 times
Reputation: 7687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Teen Carl View Post
- If you insult the Steelers it's as if you insulted someones mother. Why do people treat a sports team like family?
Because much of the insulting involves shots at the city and the fan base as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Teen Carl View Post
- Every reference to the Steelers is always inclusive with "we". "We should done this...", "we are the best team" etc. Why do people act as if they're on the team themselves?
Three reasons: 1) It's easier to say "we" than "the Steelers." 2) Sports fandom involves an emotional and financial stake in the team. 3) The players themselves repeatedly emphasize that they do what they do for the fans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Teen Carl View Post
- Why do people attempt to rationalize others disinterest for football or the franchise? Just in this thread "jealousy" was cited as the reason people don't like the Steelers.
Jealousy is a significant factor in why many football fans dislike the Steelers. You don't have to believe it, but that doesn't make it any less true. We're not talking about disinterest here; people who are disinterested are disinterested. We're talking about the tortured souls who think that "****tsburgh," "Squeelers" and "Rapistberger" are clever insults. (They're really not.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Teen Carl View Post
- Why are the Roonies praised so much as if they can do no wrong? People act like they're saints but have never actually had a conversation with any of them.
Nobody ever said the Rooneys were perfect, but they've certainly done a better job than any other ownership group since the AFL/NFL merger, and for that reason, people trust that they'll make the right decision, because they do far more often than they don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Teen Carl View Post
- Honest question: Why are the off-field antics of ball players always defended? If a school teacher was accused of rape multiple times would they be greeted by a cheering stadium of fans upon their return?
Because accusations are exactly that and nothing more. Hell, I knew four people in high school who accused me of being gay; that didn't magically make me gay. Furthermore, if people are going to make an accusation as serious as rape, then they better damn well have evidence to support such an accusation.

The truth is, neither you nor I know exactly what happened, so all we can do is search for evidence, and the lack thereof indicates that it's perfectly reasonable to doubt that he committed a crime. Oh yeah, "Well what if that was YOUR daughter?" If that was my daughter, she wouldn't be allowed out in public unsupervised anymore.
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Unread 11-04-2011, 04:48 PM
Status: "Maple tree is leafing out!" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
65,531 posts, read 51,866,729 times
Reputation: 17943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
Because much of the insulting involves shots at the city and the fan base as well.
Such as what? You gave AN example of the city, below, but what else? What do they say about the fans? We don't talk about Oakland or KC or their citizens negatively. That kind of stuff is more common at college games, IME.

Quote:
Three reasons: 1) It's easier to say "we" than "the Steelers." 2) Sports fandom involves an emotional and financial stake in the team. 3) The players themselves repeatedly emphasize that they do what they do for the fans.
1) Well, OK
2) Financial? What, other than the cost of a ticket, do you have invested in the team?
3) If you believe that, I have some beachfront property in Colorado to sell you. The players are doing what they do for money.

Quote:
Jealousy is a significant factor in why many football fans dislike the Steelers. You don't have to believe it, but that doesn't make it any less true. We're not talking about disinterest here; people who are disinterested are disinterested. We're talking about the tortured souls who think that "****tsburgh," "Squeelers" and "Rapistberger" are clever insults. (They're really not.)
I don't know how any of that represents jealousy. I think you guys are flattering yourselves that other places are jealous.

Quote:
Nobody ever said the Rooneys were perfect, but they've certainly done a better job than any other ownership group since the AFL/NFL merger, and for that reason, people trust that they'll make the right decision, because they do far more often than they don't.
Whatever.

Quote:
Because accusations are exactly that and nothing more. Hell, I knew four people in high school who accused me of being gay; that didn't magically make me gay. Furthermore, if people are going to make an accusation as serious as rape, then they better damn well have evidence to support such an accusation.

The truth is, neither you nor I know exactly what happened, so all we can do is search for evidence, and the lack thereof indicates that it's perfectly reasonable to doubt that he committed a crime. Oh yeah, "Well what if that was YOUR daughter?" If that was my daughter, she wouldn't be allowed out in public unsupervised anymore.
It IS true that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. However, I don't know why you feel the woman should be the one to bear the entire burden.
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Unread 11-04-2011, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Athens, GA (via Pittsburgh, PA)
8,847 posts, read 6,872,668 times
Reputation: 7687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
1) Well, OK
2) Financial? What, other than the cost of a ticket, do you have invested in the team?
3) If you believe that, I have some beachfront property in Colorado to sell you. The players are doing what they do for money.
We butter their bread, hence the financial investment in the team. And the investment goes beyond tickets. It also involves merchandise, parking, road trips, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I don't know how any of that represents jealousy. I think you guys are flattering yourselves that other places are jealous.
If you don't think it's possible for sports fans to have envy, then I have some beachfront property in Colorado to sell you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
It IS true that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. However, I don't know why you feel the woman should be the one to bear the entire burden.
Because the burden of proof always lies with the accuser.
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Unread 11-04-2011, 05:44 PM
Status: "Maple tree is leafing out!" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
65,531 posts, read 51,866,729 times
Reputation: 17943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
We butter their bread, hence the financial investment in the team. And the investment goes beyond tickets. It also involves merchandise, parking, road trips, etc.
TV, corporate sponsorships, merchandising and finally ticket sales.

http://www.profootball-fans.com/foot...ne_091708.html
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Unread 11-04-2011, 06:26 PM
Status: "Will be taking a little time off soon" (set 10 days ago)
 
12,918 posts, read 10,781,383 times
Reputation: 37858
Football mod, Denver Bronco fan going back to 1962 checking in here.

One of many subjects worth mentioning here are the men who grew up in the towns and cities across the state of Pennsylvania who went on to have storied careers in the National Football League. I can run a bunch of names here, but I'll just concentrate on a few names-all of them quarterbacks. And they're all in the Pro Football Hall of Fame; Dan Marino, Joe Namath, George Blanda, Jim Kelly, and a guy who who is the face of the National Football League and actually defines it-number 19, Johnny Unitas. Then there is a guy who was named by the NFL Channel as the best quarterback of them all-Joe Montana.

And class doesn't necessarily end with the NFL players. (Pardon me for kind of going off topic here) One of the best baseball players in the history of the Major Leagues came from Pennsylvania, specifically Donora. He was born before the Depression, his parents were European immigrants, his dad worked in the steel mills. During the height of the Depression that town's unemployment rate was 75%. His family was amongst the poorest.

I was familiar with this guy's career as a kid growing up in the late 50's. He finished his sterling career with 3630 base hits and it didn't take him long to be selected to the hall Of fame. He was popular in every national league city he played in, so much so that he was nicknamed "The Man" by the fans who saw him play at Ebbets Field in Brooklyn. After his retirement in 1963 he was selected by Lyndon Johnson to head the Presidents Council on Youth Physical Fitness.

The man? Stan Musial.
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Unread 11-08-2011, 06:36 PM
 
4,690 posts, read 1,594,310 times
Reputation: 1560
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Why? People in the 1920s and 1930s were not unsophisticated when it came to marketing.
Of course they were, as anyone who has surveyed the advertising of that era knows.

Quote:
Like many team sports, football is structured as a kind of mock tribal warfare.
And of course the broader cultural nexis creates those preconditions - if football-qua-tribal-warfare was not deeply engrained in the local culture, the effort would be futile.

Quote:
Here is a cool little summary
McChesney is a communications prof, isn't he?
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