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Old 02-26-2012, 01:09 PM
 
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This is because in those countries you mention, (and quite a few others including African countries which "we" consider 3rd world BTW) while they have their own language, each individual public (and private) school have English/French or German, or Spanish MANDATORY (as if it was Geography) as a subject of study at least twice a week and they don't study just street communication, they study English writers, history etc (same for French/Spanish etc) and usually they start in 5th grade. Others start sooner.

Here, where Spanish is 2nd, THAT is not mandatory in schools yet...as is math, biology etc.

My school had French and English for example. Have you noticed how when Americans travel somewhere they always find ppl there speaking English with no problems?

If you compare 5th grade math here in the states with 5th grade math in Europe you would be surprised how they don't compare, and how what is being studied in 5th grade in Europe is much more advanced and involved.

THAT said however, also back in Europe, education doesn't get cut as it does here, I mean this rampant. Sure they cut things here and there as well, but not as they do here. Here instead of cutting useless fuel consumption by the Gov to transport its so called politicians in private places, they cut education funds to makes sure the fuel is spent on private planes...and so on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
On the other hand, while PA appears to have fairly good public schools overall, it's worth noting that PA's strengths are most apparent when compared to other US states. When compared to other developed countries, even if the comparison is confined only to the English-speaking peoples, PA public school achievement looks less than stellar. When compared, for instance, to Finland, Korea or Germany, PA looks distinctly broken.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:14 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,891,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes View Post
I think it's important for us to recognize that Pennsylvania has a strong school system. We are among the states with the higher graduation rates. When considering how to improve the system, be careful that your ideas won't inadvertently destroy a good school system.
I think that is a more than fair point. I think specific students and specific communities are being ill-served by the status quo, but I agree our goal should be to figure out how to target those particular students/communities and do better, rather than revolutionize the entire system (which ain't happening anyway).
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:56 PM
gg gg started this thread
 
Location: Pittsburgh
26,137 posts, read 25,802,562 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
On the other hand, while PA appears to have fairly good public schools overall, it's worth noting that PA's strengths are most apparent when compared to other US states. When compared to other developed countries, even if the comparison is confined only to the English-speaking peoples, PA public school achievement looks less than stellar. When compared, for instance, to Finland, Korea or Germany, PA looks distinctly broken.
I don't think that has as much to do with the school districts as much as culture. The country mentioned have way less poverty. In the US, we have tons and tons of poverty and if you look at the school districts that house the super poor they all do horrible. I mean look at Duquesne and compare that to Mt. Lebanon. Is that because the school district, or a culture? I think teachers would like to teach. That is why they get into that field. Problem is, some are parents and shouldn't be. Nothing anyone can do about that.

Most of this stuff is about poverty, IMHO.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:08 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
9,316 posts, read 12,917,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
I certainly agree that reform must be made carefully, and no one wants to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

On the other hand, while PA appears to have fairly good public schools overall, it's worth noting that PA's strengths are most apparent when compared to other US states. When compared to other developed countries, even if the comparison is confined only to the English-speaking peoples, PA public school achievement looks less than stellar. When compared, for instance, to Finland, Korea or Germany, PA looks distinctly broken.

Secondly, while PA achievement levels overall may look OK in the aggregate, the structure of public education in this state locks in some very great disparities. The distance between the top and bottom fifths in PA is pretty stark, and the explanation isn't terribly obscure: relatively small districts which tend to correlate to wealth (Quaker Valley, Upper St. Clair) or poverty (Duquesne City, Wilkinsburg).

One of - and possibly the greatest - obstacles to reform is consequently that privileged good districts want to retain their advantages, while impoverished districts have little political capital. One proof of this is the lamentable situation in Duquesne, a district which clear and abundant evidence exists for radical change, and where not only has this unjust and insupportable condition been allowed to exist for far too long, but most recently the district has been allowed to linger in a purgatory caused primarily, it appears, by the state secretary of education having little or no interest in addressing the district's pathetic plight.

Unfortunately, many or most Pennsylvanians seem to regard this disparity as inevitable or natural, somewhat the way people once regarded social class division between the "rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate" as an inevitable consequence of the divine ordering of mankind. But we know that the children who grow up in the tattered remnants of Duquesne schools will cost us all, one way or another - whether in the cost to ameliorate the poverty they will certainly be condemned to, or the cost of the crime which will certainly follow from that poverty, or the squandered human resources which might otherwise benefit us all.

So while PA's public system of education is not entirely without merit, it does suffer from some serious problems, which are only aggravated by some apparently deep-rooted cultural assumptions here about the status quo and the possibility of sensible reform.
The issue is how to spread around the wealth without eviscerating its positive effects entirely. The Woodland Hills merger turned two great school districts, two mediocre school districts, and one awful school district, into one giant school district that straddles the line between mediocre and awful. Money isn't dispositive in this case--Woodland Hills actually has more dollars-per-student than high-achieving Mount Lebanon. The issue was attitude. There was an air of negativity all around. The merger devolved in a stereotypical fashion because each racial and socioeconomic group, aggregately speaking, chose to behave as stereotypes. Recall that Woodland Hills did not deteriorate right away. In fact, as recently as the early 2000s, it was ranked among Newsweek's top 1,500 public high schools. But the clash between resentment and entitlement gradually took its toll. The district recently overhauled its administration, and with it came a glimmer of hope for positive, long-lasting change. Whether that will actually come to pass remains to be seen.

We need to understand that many people will instinctually kick and scream at the sound of school district reform, and as terrible as it may sound, we have to keep their feelings in mind, lest we want such a reform to be destined to fail from the start.

The trick, I believe, is splitting up the poorer, lower-achieving districts, and attaching them to the wealthier, superior districts in a way that gives the have-nots an academic opportunity without ultimately spreading the problem by frightening away the haves. The easiest way to begin would be incorporating, small, poor districts within comparatively large, wealthy ones (eg, Cornell into Moon Area, Sto-Rox into Montour, Northgate into North Hills). Some measure of inequality is inevitable, but that doesn't mean we can't try and minimize it. The key to success is sensitivity and pragmatism.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:55 PM
 
43,011 posts, read 107,670,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenWood View Post
The trick, I believe, is splitting up the poorer, lower-achieving districts, and attaching them to the wealthier, superior districts in a way that gives the have-nots an academic opportunity without ultimately spreading the problem by frightening away the haves. The easiest way to begin would be incorporating, small, poor districts within comparatively large, wealthy ones (eg, Cornell into Moon Area, Sto-Rox into Montour, Northgate into North Hills). Some measure of inequality is inevitable, but that doesn't mean we can't try and minimize it. The key to success is sensitivity and pragmatism.
It doesn't work the way you think. What happened in Woodland Hills also happened in other districts in the 70s. When Shaler took on Etna, Millvale and Reserve, there were dangerous student riots. Eventually the student populations integrated, but Shaler is now considered an average school district. The same happened to Fox Chapel when it took on Sharpsburg, etc., but Fox Chapel retained its reputation as a superior district. That's because Fox Chapel was highly desirable upper class community; whereas, Shaler was merely an upper middle class township. The merger dragged Shaler's image down to more of a middle class and working class township than it was prior to the merger. I assure you that any of the mergers you propose would result in student riots for a minimum of a few years, but could last indefinitely like it has at Woodland Hills.
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:05 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,979 posts, read 59,955,217 times
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It's easier to talk about merging districts than it is to do so. Clarion and Clarion-Limestone explored a merger a few years ago and dropped it after resistance from both areas and the realization that the funding issues would remain, just on a larger scale.

For reference, Clarion School District encompasses Clarion Boro (a large portion of which is made up of tax exempt Clarion University) and a few miles west on RTE 322 to Shippenville.

C-L is a totally rural system that is huge, it runs from a couple miles west of Brookville to Clarion, about 15 miles in that direction and probably 10 miles north to south. In fact it goes right to Clarion's town limits and kids can see CHS from their houses but go to C-L.

The local hospitals have the same issues, by the way.
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,244,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Change is going to occur, no matter if you are kicking and screaming or not. As you can clearly read, the school system has a massive shortage of funds, due to the expenses being too high in relationship to money coming in. How do you fix it? Privatization is a wildly extreme example, but taking it down several notches, what can be done? Raise school taxes again? Create some other tax like a toll on I80. Another drink tax type thing? A hiring freeze on teachers and a huge increase student teacher ratios? Selling off most of the school buildings, which is already being done.
Well, I don't think privatization is a good idea. In fact, I think it's an idea that is incompatible with democracy. Drinks taxes are hardly going to pay for and run schools. You need some source of significant amounts of money, which would be sales and/or income tax if you want to eliminate property tax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
I certainly agree that reform must be made carefully, and no one wants to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

On the other hand, while PA appears to have fairly good public schools overall, it's worth noting that PA's strengths are most apparent when compared to other US states. When compared to other developed countries, even if the comparison is confined only to the English-speaking peoples, PA public school achievement looks less than stellar. When compared, for instance, to Finland, Korea or Germany, PA looks distinctly broken.

Secondly, while PA achievement levels overall may look OK in the aggregate, the structure of public education in this state locks in some very great disparities. The distance between the top and bottom fifths in PA is pretty stark, and the explanation isn't terribly obscure: relatively small districts which tend to correlate to wealth (Quaker Valley, Upper St. Clair) or poverty (Duquesne City, Wilkinsburg).

One of - and possibly the greatest - obstacles to reform is consequently that privileged good districts want to retain their advantages, while impoverished districts have little political capital. One proof of this is the lamentable situation in Duquesne, a district which clear and abundant evidence exists for radical change, and where not only has this unjust and insupportable condition been allowed to exist for far too long, but most recently the district has been allowed to linger in a purgatory caused primarily, it appears, by the state secretary of education having little or no interest in addressing the district's pathetic plight.

Unfortunately, many or most Pennsylvanians seem to regard this disparity as inevitable or natural, somewhat the way people once regarded social class division between the "rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate" as an inevitable consequence of the divine ordering of mankind. But we know that the children who grow up in the tattered remnants of Duquesne schools will cost us all, one way or another - whether in the cost to ameliorate the poverty they will certainly be condemned to, or the cost of the crime which will certainly follow from that poverty, or the squandered human resources which might otherwise benefit us all.

So while PA's public system of education is not entirely without merit, it does suffer from some serious problems, which are only aggravated by some apparently deep-rooted cultural assumptions here about the status quo and the possibility of sensible reform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by algia View Post
This is because in those countries you mention, (and quite a few others including African countries which "we" consider 3rd world BTW) while they have their own language, each individual public (and private) school have English/French or German, or Spanish MANDATORY (as if it was Geography) as a subject of study at least twice a week and they don't study just street communication, they study English writers, history etc (same for French/Spanish etc) and usually they start in 5th grade. Others start sooner.

Here, where Spanish is 2nd, THAT is not mandatory in schools yet...as is math, biology etc.

My school had French and English for example. Have you noticed how when Americans travel somewhere they always find ppl there speaking English with no problems?

If you compare 5th grade math here in the states with 5th grade math in Europe you would be surprised how they don't compare, and how what is being studied in 5th grade in Europe is much more advanced and involved.

THAT said however, also back in Europe, education doesn't get cut as it does here, I mean this rampant. Sure they cut things here and there as well, but not as they do here. Here instead of cutting useless fuel consumption by the Gov to transport its so called politicians in private places, they cut education funds to makes sure the fuel is spent on private planes...and so on...
The topic of PA/US education vis other countries' educational systems is a topic for another thread. I personally don't buy all that crap about how much worse our schools are, and I have posted some credible evidence on the ed forum and also P&OC. (Some just today, in fact.)

I do think ed reform is needed. I think more state-wide equity in educational funding would be a good thing. I think statewide open enrollment would be a good thing. Both of those issues would need to be done at the state level.
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:02 PM
 
377 posts, read 649,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenWood View Post
The trick, I believe, is splitting up the poorer, lower-achieving districts, and attaching them to the wealthier, superior districts in a way that gives the have-nots an academic opportunity without ultimately spreading the problem by frightening away the haves. The easiest way to begin would be incorporating, small, poor districts within comparatively large, wealthy ones (eg, Cornell into Moon Area, Sto-Rox into Montour, Northgate into North Hills). Some measure of inequality is inevitable, but that doesn't mean we can't try and minimize it. The key to success is sensitivity and pragmatism.
I agree with you that merging those much smaller districts into the larger ones is where to start. With the way things are going I could definitely see some of these happenings. I have always wondered why Northgate needed to exist on it's own. I don't know if anyone has ever brought up merging Northgate and Avonworth? They are both two smaller districts. I am sure the parents at Avonworth wouldn't really be for it though. Your idea of Northgate into North Hills is probably the better idea as North Hills is much larger. I think at Northgate my graduating class had about 98 students if my memory serves correctly. School buses from North Hills also already pretty much go into Bellevue as the outskirts are considered Ross.
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:54 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
9,316 posts, read 12,917,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes View Post
It doesn't work the way you think. What happened in Woodland Hills also happened in other districts in the 70s. When Shaler took on Etna, Millvale and Reserve, there were dangerous student riots. Eventually the student populations integrated, but Shaler is now considered an average school district. The same happened to Fox Chapel when it took on Sharpsburg, etc., but Fox Chapel retained its reputation as a superior district. That's because Fox Chapel was highly desirable upper class community; whereas, Shaler was merely an upper middle class township. The merger dragged Shaler's image down to more of a middle class and working class township than it was prior to the merger. I assure you that any of the mergers you propose would result in student riots for a minimum of a few years, but could last indefinitely like it has at Woodland Hills.
The one issue Woodland Hills had that those other mergers did not was a mixing of racial elements. Etna/Millvale/Sharpsburg/Blawnox, however low on the socioeconomic totem pole, were mostly white.
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:57 PM
 
4,684 posts, read 4,555,342 times
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Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
It's easier to talk about merging districts than it is to do so.
Absolutely agree - so much so that I discount any possibility of serious school district reform unless it comes in the form of an act of the Gen Ass.

Which is to say, never.
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