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Old 08-29-2012, 07:53 PM
 
1,164 posts, read 2,049,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by globalburgh View Post
I don't know. I'm not sure why you are asking that question. But Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania are both in the top tier for corporate real estate projects. Right to work doesn't do squat. All the complaining about bureaucracy and high taxes is misinformed.
They're asking that question because they cannot explain why Clairton and Braddock are not thriving communities. Both have a strong industrial base and thousands of jobs, more jobs than this cracker will bring. But both are...ummm...burned-out ghettos that no one wants to live. Including the poster I'm pretty sure.
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Old 08-30-2012, 12:49 AM
 
Location: About 10 miles north of Pittsburgh International
2,458 posts, read 4,184,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyev View Post
Here's your options:

1) Build the new plant and turn Monaca into a thriving community modeled on Braddock or Clairton
Bad comparison.

While Monaca isn't what it was in its heyday, it never declined to the point that a Braddock or a Clairton have.

The cracker wouldn't be in the Borough of Monaca anyway, it'd be in Potter Twp (pop 600+/-). Potter shares a postal address with Monaca, but physically, they're relatively isolated from each other. That would actually probably work to Monaca's advantage.


Quote:
2) Don't build the plant and turn the town into an Aliquippa.
Another bad comparison.

While the closing of the Aliquippa works just about killed the town, it hurt Monaca as well. Monaca did have other industry though. In Aliquippa, J&L Steel was pretty much the only game in town.

I've never had the sense that the zinc plant is to Monaca what J&L was to Aliquippa. Yes, it would hurt if it shut down and nothing replaced it, but it's not the only reason the town exists, which is the case with Aliquippa and J&L.


Quote:
3) Skip Shell and get something like Westinghouse. Or some CMU spin-offs. Then Monaca could be a Cranberry with character.
There's still plenty of land available where the Aliquippa mill was. Watcha got?
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:16 PM
 
1,164 posts, read 2,049,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchdigger View Post
Bad comparison.

While Monaca isn't what it was in its heyday, it never declined to the point that a Braddock or a Clairton have.
I fail to see why this is a bad comparison. Heavy industry destroys property values. Clairton and Braddock are perfect examples of what heavy industry does to a thriving community in the 21st century. Almost every metropolitan area has places like Clairton and Braddock. Houston has its Baytown, Texas City, Galena Park and Jacinto City; Chicago has its Gary and Calumet City; San Francisco has its Oakland; St Louis has its Granite City; New Orleans has it's Gretna. Boarded-up main streets, empty houses, and population shrinkage coupled with 24-hour production at chemical plants, refineries and steel mills.

People clamor for heavy industry because it produces jobs. Jobs for 100 machines and 2 people. The production of crystal meth probably contributes more to the economy in Western PA than a cat cracker ever will. You don't see people clamoring for a meth lab next door. But if they organized, hired lobbyists and produced commercials, then people would probably say that crystal meth is a good thing. Like the soot that covers your windows, makes your kids asthmatic and slowly squeezes the life out of your lungs. Or that drinking water that catches fire...
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:28 PM
 
1,714 posts, read 2,346,696 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyev View Post
I fail to see why this is a bad comparison. Heavy industry destroys property values. Clairton and Braddock are perfect examples of what heavy industry does to a thriving community in the 21st century. Almost every metropolitan area has places like Clairton and Braddock. Houston has its Baytown, Texas City, Galena Park and Jacinto City; Chicago has its Gary and Calumet City; San Francisco has its Oakland; St Louis has its Granite City; New Orleans has it's Gretna. Boarded-up main streets, empty houses, and population shrinkage coupled with 24-hour production at chemical plants, refineries and steel mills.

People clamor for heavy industry because it produces jobs. Jobs for 100 machines and 2 people. The production of crystal meth probably contributes more to the economy in Western PA than a cat cracker ever will. You don't see people clamoring for a meth lab next door. But if they organized, hired lobbyists and produced commercials, then people would probably say that crystal meth is a good thing. Like the soot that covers your windows, makes your kids asthmatic and slowly squeezes the life out of your lungs. Or that drinking water that catches fire...

There's a ZINC SMELTING PLANT there already. What's could possibly happen to the property values that the current dangerous stink-factory hasn't already done? I'd call this "progress" of a sort as far as the environmental issues go. There are plenty of good discussions to be had about the whole shale thing. The problem is when either side resorts to hyperbole when there really isn't any need for that.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:43 PM
 
Location: About 10 miles north of Pittsburgh International
2,458 posts, read 4,184,874 times
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Quote:
Heavy industry destroys property values. Clairton and Braddock are perfect examples of what heavy industry does to a thriving community in the 21st century.
Clairton and Braddock would never have been thriving communities if it hadn't been for the industry located there. And while there's certainly a NIMBY component to it, their decline is a whole lot more connected to the decline of the local steel industry in general than it is to the bits of it that remain. They're better examples of how the departure of heavy industry contributes to decline.

How about Ambridge? It's known to be a little seedy these days. Do you think it's better off without American Bridge, or was it better off when that plant was there?



Quote:
I fail to see why this is a bad comparison.
Lemme draw you a picture. (With a little help from Google Earth.)

Outlined in geeen is, more or less, the town of Monaca. Outlined in yellow, is residential land in Center Twp. Outlined in blue is a commercial distict in Center, which has Beaver Valley Mall, a Lowes, a bunch of other retail stores and resturaunts, and everybody's favorite neighbor, a Super Walmart. In red is the current zinc plant.

The zinc plant isn't really in anybody's backyard, except for those resident's of Potter Twp. (Who, BTW, are fairly close neighbors to the Bruce Mansfield and Shippingport power plants.)

As a special bonus, included is a second picture, of downtown Monaca. Highlighted in green is the Phoenix Glass division of Anchor Hocking Corp. It's literally in the backyard of the Monaca town hall...
Attached Thumbnails
Cracker Plant-cracker-site.jpg   Cracker Plant-phoenix-glass.jpg  

Last edited by ditchdigger; 08-31-2012 at 05:52 PM..
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:05 PM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,877,652 times
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As Chris Briem and many others have documented, residents started fleeing the mill towns BEFORE the mills shut down. The real trigger was the combination of rising wages and affordable transportation that allowed workers to move away from the mills.
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:40 PM
 
Location: About 10 miles north of Pittsburgh International
2,458 posts, read 4,184,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
As Chris Briem and many others have documented, residents started fleeing the mill towns BEFORE the mills shut down. The real trigger was the combination of rising wages and affordable transportation that allowed workers to move away from the mills.
And to go shopping at "the mall". No more need for the local business district.

To say though, that "Clairton and Braddock are perfect examples of what heavy industry does to a thriving community in the 21st century", is false equivalence. There are too many other factors at play.

There are plenty examples of places that are similarly run down that never had any heavy industry, just as there are examples of places where heavy industry continues to coexist with viable communities, and, places where the departure of heavy industry preceded (some would argue precipitated), the deepest point of their decline, and where an absence of heavy industry has not precipitated a comeback.

(I mentioned Ambridge. How about Homestead? The Waterfront's nice, but Homestead is a dump. Are those better places now than 40 years ago? Hazelwood, anybody?)
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Old 09-01-2012, 12:21 AM
 
1,164 posts, read 2,049,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchdigger View Post
And to go shopping at "the mall". No more need for the local business district.

To say though, that "Clairton and Braddock are perfect examples of what heavy industry does to a thriving community in the 21st century", is false equivalence. There are too many other factors at play.

There are plenty examples of places that are similarly run down that never had any heavy industry, just as there are examples of places where heavy industry continues to coexist with viable communities
Give me one example - just one - of a viable community that currently co-exists with heavy industry. Anywhere in the country.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:01 AM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
14,169 posts, read 22,596,535 times
Reputation: 17328
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyev View Post
Give me one example - just one - of a viable community that currently co-exists with heavy industry. Anywhere in the country.
Well we gotta put the heavy industry somewhere.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:40 AM
 
Location: About 10 miles north of Pittsburgh International
2,458 posts, read 4,184,874 times
Reputation: 2374
Neville Island*

Quote:
Neville Township, founded in 1901, is an island on the Ohio River, located in southwestern Pennsylvania. The island is 5 miles long and four-tenths of a mile wide, with a population of 1,232 and more than 150 businesses.


The island's location, flat topography, riverfront access and sound infrastructure make it ideal for industrial and commercial redevelopment. The island is heavily industrialized on its east side and has residential neighborhoods overlooking the Ohio River on the western side of the island.
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