Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As I said in another thread, I think Pittsburgh schools get a bum rap.
The national gap in test scores is mainly caused by race, and to a lesser degree class, and has far less to do with the amount of funding a school gets, or the quality of teaching. I'm not saying that the test score gap is genetic - I don't think the reasons are fully explored yet, and we need to do a lot more to combat it. Still, we should realize it's there.
Parents often look at the aggregate test scores of Pittsburgh, which reflect a 56% black student body, and assume that average test score has some bearing on their own (usually white) child. Thus white parents move out or put their kids into private school, which means in aggregate, the school district becomes blacker, and test scores fall further. We need to find a way to break this cycle.
Regardless, I've started a project of looking at the PSSA 2011 test scores of all Pittsburgh schools, broken down by race, and comparing the results of white students in Pittsburgh to white students in the top suburban districts. The elementary data isn't ready for prime time yet, but given Pittsburgh only has a dozen high schools, I thought I would post my findings here.
To break things down first, Pittsburgh has 12 schools, 11 of which have test scores for last year available (the Science & Technology school is still too new apparently). Looking at average test scores for all students, the average between the 11th grade Math and Science scores (advanced + proficient) is
Compare this to some of the top suburban districts:
Upper Saint Clair - 93.8%
Mount Lebanon - 91.7%
North Allegheny - 91.6%
Fox Chapel Area - 89.2%
And initially it looks like CAPA is the only school that comes close to the same performance.
Let's repeat the same comparison group looking at white students only, to eliminate some demographic drag on test scores.
Obama - 96.2%
CAPA - 94.2%
Alderdice - 84.7%
Langley - 58.9%
Carrick - 60.8%
Brashear - 58.5%
Oliver - 58.4%
Perry - 54%
U-Prep/Peabody/Westinghouse No white students.
Then the top suburban schools - white only:
Upper Saint Clair - 93.8%
Mount Lebanon - 93%
North Allegheny - 90.2%
Fox Chapel Area - 89.3%
As you can see, white kids at Obama and CAPA both outscore their compatriots at all four of the suburban districts considered among the best in the county! Alderdice isn't terribly far behind either, and as a group these three make up 1/3rd of the total white enrollment of PPS 11th graders. Most of the remainder are in Carrick or Brashear, but all of the remainder score in roughly the same range as white students in the economically-depressed areas of the county like McKeesport, Steel valley, East Allegheny, etc. Thus both the "rich white" and the "poor white" part of Pittsburgh Public Schools are pretty comparable to similar regions outside the city.
And to show the other side, Pittsburgh also provides the best education for black students in the county. CAPA has the second highest-scoring black students in the county, and Alderdice and Obama are also within the top ten. Mind you, part of this is because the state doesn't cacluate averages for districts where less than ten black students took the PSSA exams for a grade - collectively the "fab four" above only had 24 black 11th graders last year. Still, it should be noted that the city offers great choices - certainly based upon scores alone it makes more sense for a black parent to get their child enrolled there than to move to Penn Hills or Woodland Hills, where the average black student does worse (but still better than terrible Pittsburgh schools like Westinghouse or Oliver).
Hopefully in a few weeks I can post about elementary school in detail, with graphs. In some ways I think this is more important, because Pittsburgh's magnet system, by middle and high school, has a minimum GPA requirement for entry, which means the population can be self-selected to a degree it cannot in suburban schools. Then, as magnet slots open up, parents who missed out, or moved in at a later point, can get their children into a good school with comparable ease.
You've only proven that two schools are okay-ish, not that Pittsburgh schools aren't bad.Most of those scores are shockingly terrible in both of your examples. Another thing you're not taking into consideration is the drop out rate. I'll bet there's a significant percentage of students who drop out prior to 11th grade in the city schools, so their low scores wouldn't be included.
Is it possible that a larger portion of students at CAPA, Obama and Allerdice come from "book-friendly" families with higher education levels and where greater emphasis is placed on educational success? If so, wouldn't your observations only reinforce the truism that these family factors matter more than any others in a student's likely outcomes?
There are undoubtedly more sophisticated approaches you could take to this question with enough data, controlling for more factors known to influence test scores.
Nonetheless, I suspect the basic conclusion suggested above is correct: CAPA, Allderdice, and Obama are likely all doing a pretty good job on an individualized basis, likely well enough to rank among the better high schools in the area.
Incidentally, it is very nice to see Obama on that list, and it would be great to see SciTech join it (obviously the PPS should not be content with the performance of the other HS, but having four good ones would be a big step forward).
You've only proven that two schools are okay-ish, not that Pittsburgh schools aren't bad.Most of those scores are shockingly terrible in both of your examples.
Indeed. But as I said, the bottom three didn't have a single white student. Generally, in standardized testing, the average black student scores at around the 25th percentile of the average white student. So such terrible scores aren't particularly surprising. To grossly simplify (and I hope I don't come across as racist saying this) the schools aren't 90%+ black because they're bad, they're bad because they're 90%+ black. If they had a racially, economically, and academically mixed student body, they'd have very different scores even with identical teachers, funding, and educational strategies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
Another thing you're not taking into consideration is the drop out rate. I'll bet there's a significant percentage of students who drop out prior to 11th grade in the city schools, so their low scores wouldn't be included.
Of course. Alderdice has 308 11th graders, for example, which is more than Westinghouse, Peabody, Oliver, and Langley put together.
On the other hand, by high school, parents have had every chance possible to get their child out of those schools if they are so inclined. Even if you don't get in the magnet system right away, the magnet programs after elementary generally require a 2.5 GPA, or you pass your 7th grade exams with a high enough mark, and you don't skip school too many times. If a parent hasn't done this, or tried to enroll their child in a charter or private school, or moved out of the feeder pattern, is it any wonder that what's left over is truly dismal?
Anyway, that's part of the reason why I'm looking at the elementary scores. It will take longer though, as PSSA tests over three years instead of just one. I'm finding some interesting things already though, like
1. Students of all races score better at the magnet schools. However, black students show a much higher boost than white students.
2. For the most part, a preponderance of black students in a school doesn't result in lower test scores for white students at neighborhood elementary schools. There are only three exceptions: Sunnyside (Stanton Heights), Woolslair (Bloomfield), and Arsenal (Lawrenceville), where the white students also do pretty badly.
3. On the other hand, going to a racially-mixed elementary school generally results in black students doing better. This is possibly because there is more likely to be a social norm towards putting effort into school which some students seek to follow. The only overwhelmingly black elementary school which isn't absolutely terrible is Manchester, which is also interesting, as Manchester also has retained more of a black middle class community than elsewhere in the city.
Is it possible that a larger portion of students at CAPA, Obama and Allerdice come from "book-friendly" families with higher education levels and where greater emphasis is placed on educational success? If so, wouldn't your observations only reinforce the truism that these family factors matter more than any others in a student's likely outcomes?
That's exactly what I think is happening - the magnets self-select for intelligent, involved parents of all races.
That said, they also help foster peer pressure to excel academically, meaning the shared social environment probably also helps things along. Everything I've read regarding life outcomes suggests your peer group in childhood has a whole lot more to do with your life outcomes than anything your parents try to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian
If I read you correctly, USC, MtL, NA and FCA have just two dozen black 11th graders between them? A stark statistic.
That's exactly what I meant. Scary no?
Also, I posted this just before leaving work, and noticed I transposed the Carrick and Langley numbers in the second instance. Just in case anyone wades into the data and notices.
Very interesting eschaton! I guess I can believe it but just seemed shocking considering the size of the schools.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $53,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
