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Old 06-11-2012, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,360 posts, read 16,863,806 times
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With all of the East End so hopping these days, I'm constantly wondering why the Upper Hill seems to get lumped in with the rest of the Hill District, when it doesn't face the same issues.

The crime rate there is very low. In 2010 there were 2.2 Part 1 crime reports per 100 people - exactly the same as Point Breeze and Squirrel Hill South. Part II crime was a bit higher (3.8), but still nestled between Beechview and Crafton Heights, fairly safe neighborhoods.

Compared to the rest of the Hill, it's fairly intact. It's had little recent infill/redevelopment, but missing teeth are the distinct minority. The neighborhood remains mostly owner-occupied, with fairly low levels of unoccupied or derelict buildings, but enough space for some creative infill.

In addition, while it's semi-isolated (only five roads really go into the "core" of the neighborhood), is pretty close to Oakland. Indeed, a small part of Schenley Farms is actually in the Upper Hill.

Thus I could see the Upper Hill having an appeal to both the black and white population in Pittsburgh. For the black population, it's clearly the safest, most stable black neighborhood in the city (unless you count Chartiers City). I know there has been a movement among the black middle class to restore Manchester, but the prices there have escalated to the point that new entry is probably difficult. In addition, given the important place the Hill District has in local African American culture, and the history of the Upper Hill as the original center of the black middle class in the city, you'd think there would be a symbolic meaning to restoring it as well.

For the white (or more properly, non-black gentrifying) population who seeks to live in the East End, it's one of the last affordable, safe neighborhood in the East End, although similar to Polish Hill few houses go on the market. To the best of my knowledge though, only the "actually Polish Hill" (Ridgeway Street, Monroe Street, etc) and "actually Oakland" *(Schenley Farms Terrace, Andover Terrace) areas have a mixed/white population.

Does it all come down to something similar to how the press talks about the "Northside" or "West End" as if it is one unit, so that people don't realize the Upper Hill, while it has its issues, isn't really much worse off than a lot of working-class white neighborhoods in the city?

Last edited by eschaton; 06-11-2012 at 08:40 AM..
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:25 AM
 
20,273 posts, read 32,861,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Does it all come down to something similar to how the press talks about the "Northside" or "West End" as if it is one unit, so that people don't realize the Upper Hill, while it has its issues, isn't really much worse off than a lot of working-class white neighborhoods in the city?
I certainly think that is part of it. I also think there is an unfortunate tendency among some people here to bracket off "black" neighborhoods as one homogenous lump.

Finally, I also think there is something to the idea that neighborhoods that are off the beaten path (meaning not located along main routes to popular destinations) are more likely to be overlooked.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:30 AM
 
Location: 15206
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This area is called "sugar top" by longtime Hill residents. Some people have referred to it as Schenley Heights as well.

I'm sure at some point it'll take off but there is one thing holding it back. Despite being locals, Pittsburghers are annoyed by one thing almost as much as bridges....Hills. The Hill isn't level like the rest of the East End.

Sure, Sq Hill is a hill, but it has always been very nice. Otherwise, the rest of the East End is pretty flat.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:37 AM
 
Location: 15206
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Also, the point that Brian commented on is probably pretty accurate. The hill gets lumped as one whole neighborhood. Crawford Square is very nice - nicer than the upper hill, but it also gets lumped in with the rest of the Hill.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:37 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
....so that people don't realize the Upper Hill, while it has its issues, isn't really much worse off than a lot of working-class white neighborhoods in the city?
What? Lets compare some of those "white working class neighborhoods", to the Hill shall we. What about Morningside? It wasn't that long ago you could buy a home there for super cheap. Have a look today. That was and still partly is a working class neighborhood, whatever that means. Property values have doubled there. Hill? Nope. Lawrenceville? Seems it is very much on the rise. Hill? Nope. Why? Crime and the amount of crime. The Hill isn't safe in many areas. Maybe close to Oakland it is okay, but there is a lot of crime all over the Hill. I don't think we will see it change in our lifetime, unless Pittsburgh really goes through a booming time. I don't think that is going to happen due to our taxing style. You have to be more welcoming and Pittsburgh has a tax system in place that really punishes you if you fix up your home. Taxes on the Hill are very low, but if you start fixing up part of it and you get hit with a reassessment, your taxes could triple overnight and you may be forced to leave. That isn't welcoming. People move here from Cali or whatever and say, wow you can get a lot of house for the money here. Then as a real estate agent, I would have to break the tax news to them. Most of the time they were in total disbelief and I would literally have to show them in writing. They usually lowered their price range they were looking for down by a significant margin. It is a big hinderance for growth and therefore I don't think the Hill will change. East Liberty is taking a while to change and I see Larimer's possibilities before the Upper Hill. JMHO from 20++ years of real estate experience.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:48 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selltheburgh View Post
The hill gets lumped as one whole neighborhood. Crawford Square is very nice - nicer than the upper hill, but it also gets lumped in with the rest of the Hill.
I don't agree with this at all. The Northside isn't looked at as one huge place. War Streets are the War Streets. Allegheny West is Allegheny West. Perry Hilltop is Perry Hilltop. The difference is parts of the Northside are VERY nice and pretty darn expensive and they are looked upon as separate places. Sure in a casual conversation people may say, "I live on the Northside.", but the neighborhoods are very much individual. I rarely hear someone from the War Streets say they live on the Northside. They say, I live in the War Streets.

Most of the Hill will remain as it is. Sure the Crawford Square area got developed and people are all excited thinking it will continue all the way to Oakland. Maybe in a few generations, but no in mine. Too much crime and way to big.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,360 posts, read 16,863,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
Finally, I also think there is something to the idea that neighborhoods that are off the beaten path (meaning not located along main routes to popular destinations) are more likely to be overlooked.
True. Although the example of Morningside was also brought up, which is clearly a white neighborhood off the beaten path, which, despite not being "cool" has seen a lot of appreciation with similar housing stock to the Upper Hill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by selltheburgh View Post
I'm sure at some point it'll take off but there is one thing holding it back. Despite being locals, Pittsburghers are annoyed by one thing almost as much as bridges....Hills. The Hill isn't level like the rest of the East End.

Sure, Sq Hill is a hill, but it has always been very nice. Otherwise, the rest of the East End is pretty flat.
Yup. The other big exceptions are Stanton Heights and Greenfield. Come to think of it, both of these get slagged on a lot as well. Greenfield admittedly less, because the good local schools seem to make a difference. Greenfield and Sugar Top are pretty similar in terms of housing styles actually, although Greenfield has less rowhouses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by selltheburgh View Post
Also, the point that Brian commented on is probably pretty accurate. The hill gets lumped as one whole neighborhood. Crawford Square is very nice - nicer than the upper hill, but it also gets lumped in with the rest of the Hill.
I have a feeling this will change if Crawford Square is really extended through the former Civic Arena site. It's going to lose a lot of the "islolated" feeling then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
What? Lets compare some of those "white working class neighborhoods", to the Hill shall we. What about Morningside? It wasn't that long ago you could buy a home there for super cheap. Have a look today. That was and still partly is a working class neighborhood, whatever that means. Property values have doubled there. Hill? Nope. Lawrenceville? Seems it is very much on the rise. Hill? Nope. Why? Crime and the amount of crime. The Hill isn't safe in many areas. Maybe close to Oakland it is okay, but there is a lot of crime all over the Hill. I don't think we will see it change in our lifetime, unless Pittsburgh really goes through a booming time. I don't think that is going to happen due to our taxing style. You have to be more welcoming and Pittsburgh has a tax system in place that really punishes you if you fix up your home. Taxes on the Hill are very low, but if you start fixing up part of it and you get hit with a reassessment, your taxes could triple overnight and you may be forced to leave. That isn't welcoming. People move here from Cali or whatever and say, wow you can get a lot of house for the money here. Then as a real estate agent, I would have to break the tax news to them. Most of the time they were in total disbelief and I would literally have to show them in writing. They usually lowered their price range they were looking for down by a significant margin. It is a big hinderance for growth and therefore I don't think the Hill will change. East Liberty is taking a while to change and I see Larimer's possibilities before the Upper Hill. JMHO from 20++ years of real estate experience.
Curtis, you're doing exactly what I said I suspected people do when they discount the Upper Hill - lumping it in with the rest of the Hill. Even Uptown Kid admits it's safe with little to no gang activity now. But the perceptions matter as much as reality sadly.

As to the tax matter, I'm not sure why it is a concern within Pittsburgh proper, as every house has the same tax rate regardless of value. Hell, if people were so tax-averse they downgraded their price range, areas like the Upper Hill would look like more of a steal, not less.
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:05 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
26,137 posts, read 25,764,588 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
As to the tax matter, I'm not sure why it is a concern within Pittsburgh proper, as every house has the same tax rate regardless of value. Hell, if people were so tax-averse they downgraded their price range, areas like the Upper Hill would look like more of a steal, not less.
Simple math: Tax millage Rate multiplied by Property Value = Tax. Rate isn't the equation, it needs to have home value as well to determine what you are going to be paying. Therefore, if the Hill started to rebuild and values increase taxes would go up when they storm through and reassess. In some cases taxes on one property could go up 5 times the old value because you can buy a home in the Hill for a few grand. People would then be wondering, why did I fix my place up, now I have to leave. Sad, but true.
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:16 AM
 
2,236 posts, read 2,960,282 times
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selltheburgh,

Just a thought, don't the hills have the views? Do home buyers care about having views? If new arrivals to Pittsburgh lived in an area that was relatively flat, a flatlander, then isn't being on a hill with a view a potential selling point?
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:16 AM
 
Location: East End of Pittsburgh
747 posts, read 1,225,244 times
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The black section of stanton heights is stable. The are many middle class black sections of city neighborhoods that are stable. Up until 2000, Homewood had quite a few middle class sections that were stable and owner occupied. Even Wilkinsburg has stable middle class black neighborhoods. Chartiers City and Sugartop are not the exception. Is this what you believe to be true? I am not familiar with Chartiers City or the west end for that matter. I was told that the black middle class of the west end lived in Sharaden, Crafton Heights, and Chartiers City.
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