Let's go Bucs!!! (limit, history, system)

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by that412

Then why even bring up the fact that the Pirates are unlikely to re-sign McCutchen? You were pretty clearly implying that the Pirates would let him walk simply because they're TOO CHEAP!!! to give him a new deal and not for any intelligent baseball reason, such as the fact that paying a 37-year-old McCutchen $24 million or whatever is likely to end up being a crippling blow.


David Price has never been a free agent and thus couldn't be "signed" by anyone so you're not even making any sense. When he is a free agent after this season he's certainly going to command $25 mil+ until he's in his late 30s. Also not a smart game to play for a team in a market like Pittsburgh unless you want to end up like the Reds (or the Brewers, for that matter - ask them whether going "all in" in 2011 was worth the complete shambles they are now). And the A's are sure looking good after their gambit last season.

They will let him walk because they're too cheap.

The Bucs interjected themselves as being in the mix till the very end when he was being traded from Tampa Bay so it has nothing to do with him being a free agent.

You're so worried about Bob's wallet and your standards are so low that you're satisfied with 4 innings of Buctober. You play to win and do everything you can when you have the chance and resources for a championship team. That's not the case with the Bucs.

[that412]

Originally Posted by erieguy

They will let him walk because they're too cheap.

No, they will let him walk because it would be stupid to sign him to a market value extension covering his mid to late 30s. Do you think such an extension would be a good idea?

The Bucs interjected themselves as being in the mix till the very end when he was being traded from Tampa Bay so it has nothing to do with him being a free agent.

....so how does it have anything to do with the Pirates' "cheapness" when it was entirely Tampa Bay's decision to take the Tigers offer instead?

You're so worried about Bob's wallet and your standards are so low that you're satisfied with 4 innings of Buctober. You play to win and do everything you can when you have the chance and resources for a championship team. That's not the case with the Bucs.

Once you're in the playoffs it's a crap shoot no matter how much money you've spent, so what I'm worried about is simply sustaining a playoff caliber team, and that's something that I guarantee you will not happen if the Pirates started spending money foolishly.

Put it this way, I'd rather have a 1/8 chance of winning the World Series every year for the next decade and beyond than have even, say, a 1/2 chance of winning the World Series (which are ridiculous odds no matter what team you are) this year and maybe next year and then go back to decrepitude because we've saddled ourselves with a bunch of bad contracts.

Maybe you feel differently, and that's totally your prerogative, but the Pirates clearly believe that the former is the better way to go, and only someone who is deluded would claim that they haven't done a remarkably effective job putting a team together capable of sustained contention.

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by that412

No, they will let him walk because it would be stupid to sign him to a market value extension covering his mid to late 30s. Do you think such an extension would be a good idea?


....so how does it have anything to do with the Pirates' "cheapness" when it was entirely Tampa Bay's decision to take the Tigers offer instead?


Once you're in the playoffs it's a crap shoot no matter how much money you've spent, so what I'm worried about is simply sustaining a playoff caliber team, and that's something that I guarantee you will not happen if the Pirates started spending money foolishly.

Put it this way, I'd rather have a 1/8 chance of winning the World Series every year for the next decade and beyond than have even, say, a 1/2 chance of winning the World Series (which are ridiculous odds no matter what team you are) this year and maybe next year and then go back to decrepitude because we've saddled ourselves with a bunch of bad contracts.

Maybe you feel differently, and that's totally your prerogative, but the Pirates clearly believe that the former is the better way to go, and only someone who is deluded would claim that they haven't done a remarkably effective job putting a team together capable of sustained contention.

Instead of letting him walk sign him to an extension rather than their typical lowball offer or trade him and get something for him. They won't do either because they're too cheap and it would be a bad PR move to let him go.

The point is the Bucs were never a player for Price. It's their typical lowball interject their name into the mix acting like they're in it to win it. Basic PR nonsense.

They're in the bottom of the league in payroll when they have $$$ to spend properly on MLB talent.

I understand what your saying. Your standards are low. They're 2/20 years with a winning record and have done all but nothing since '79. They will never win another WS under present ownership with the formula they have. 1/8 is a pipe dream.

[sskink]

Originally Posted by that412

No, they will let him walk because it would be stupid to sign him to a market value extension covering his mid to late 30s. Do you think such an extension would be a good idea?


....so how does it have anything to do with the Pirates' "cheapness" when it was entirely Tampa Bay's decision to take the Tigers offer instead?


Once you're in the playoffs it's a crap shoot no matter how much money you've spent, so what I'm worried about is simply sustaining a playoff caliber team, and that's something that I guarantee you will not happen if the Pirates started spending money foolishly.

Put it this way, I'd rather have a 1/8 chance of winning the World Series every year for the next decade and beyond than have even, say, a 1/2 chance of winning the World Series (which are ridiculous odds no matter what team you are) this year and maybe next year and then go back to decrepitude because we've saddled ourselves with a bunch of bad contracts.

Maybe you feel differently, and that's totally your prerogative, but the Pirates clearly believe that the former is the better way to go, and only someone who is deluded would claim that they haven't done a remarkably effective job putting a team together capable of sustained contention.

fwiw, David Price has never won a post season game as a starter. 0-5. And last year, other than Baumgarner, pretty much every "ace" failed in post season play.

Or you could look at things this way: The first-place defending AL champion Royals replaced James Shields with Edinson Volquez, who lost the Bucs WC game (and no pitcher can win a game when their offense is being shut out).

As far as Cutch goes, maybe they can rework his contract to give him more per year under the current contract and extend him another 3 years to age 34. But that's going to cost $90-$100 million when it's not a necessary expense. Perhaps Cutch takes less because he's got a bigger agenda (attracting more urban AAs to MLB) and feels Pittsburgh is the best place to pursue that agenda. Regardless, it would require that Marte or Polanco get traded because you're not going to trade Meadows - and that would mean Polanco, who already passed up $70 mill guaranteed.

Locking up younger players to team-friendly contracts is the current mode for 80% of MLB, which is why the FA pool just isn't what it used to be. That's not going away without a strike - which is possible since the players share of revenue across MLB is around 42% when it used to be in the 60% range not too long ago.

Neal locked up Cutch, Marte and Harrison. He should try to lock up Cole and buy out 2 FA years. One of the best things the Bucs have done is avoiding albatross contracts with big salaries underproducing or worse, being injured. That they've got logjams on promoting kids in the minors speaks volumes to the amount of organizational change and philosophy since 2008. The team is being built to be in the race every year. You've got to be in it to win it.

Some people need to point to championships in order to feel good about themselves. Others consider sports as simply enjoyable entertainment.

[erieguy]

Some people are happy with mediocrity and sustainability. The Bucs knowing that will spend the minimum to make the most $$$. Looking at payroll vs revenue it can't be argued that the Bucs do everything they can to win a championship.

[that412]

I'm done with this round of beating my head against a brick wall, see you guys in a couple of months. But before I go, I do want to point out how erieguy's refrain has gone from "they'll be back to losing in a year or two" to merely "they'll never win a championship!!"

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by that412

I'm done with this round of beating my head against a brick wall, see you guys in a couple of months. But before I go, I do want to point out how erieguy's refrain has gone from "they'll be back to losing in a year or two" to merely "they'll never win a championship!!"

Once again, I've always said they will never win a championship under current ownership...and as I said, I will not be surprised if they finish under .500 this year.

[safak]

Originally Posted by erieguy

Once again, I've always said they will never win a championship under current ownership...and as I said, I will not be surprised if they finish under .500 this year.

i realize when things are going as good as..well as anytime in recent memory, its not popular here to bump the thread but.

would you be surprised now?

They have 2 of the best pitchers in major league baseball, another 2 that are pitching lights out. They have a great young lineup that is hitting its stride, with great bench players at every position. Their only questions are really 1 more reliever, and the very last guy on the bench, which I'm sure you are going to bring up to as why they suck and are cheap and are just getting lucky. because they don't have career bench player travis snider and his .650 OPS.

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by safak

i realize when things are going as good as..well as anytime in recent memory, its not popular here to bump the thread but.

would you be surprised now?

They have 2 of the best pitchers in major league baseball, another 2 that are pitching lights out. They have a great young lineup that is hitting its stride, with great bench players at every position. Their only questions are really 1 more reliever, and the very last guy on the bench, which I'm sure you are going to bring up to as why they suck and are cheap and are just getting lucky. because they don't have career bench player travis snider and his .650 OPS.

No, I won't be surprised. They've been playing good ball, they've been playing some bad teams, and they caught some good teams that were on a slide.

Yup, they do have 2 of the best pitchers in MLB and Burnett lighting it up is awesome, especially when many argued he was washed up.

Great bench players at every position? Like Corey Hart? The team has very little depth and are a few injuries away from being where they were not long ago.

You better add a starter or 2 to the reliever you mentioned. Any one of them go down and they're in trouble. And don't forget, Locke is still on the team and Worley isn't much better if at all.

You must be confused on my opinion of Snider. Snider is just better than Hart and Lambeau. Morneau is the guy Bob cheaped out on.

When Bob gets that payroll in the middle of the league with quality MLB talent I'll be ecstatic. But reality is it won't happen.

[safak]

Originally Posted by safak

and the very last guy on the bench, which I'm sure you are going to bring up

Originally Posted by erieguy

Great bench players at every position? Like Corey Hart?

So predictable.
When your arguments are the last guy on the bench, and 'what if everyone gets hurt' i think thats called, grasping at straws.