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After reading what I have read on this thread, one has to wonder, if police should have presence there. Maybe just let it be without police? I am not sure if that would be what some folks want or not, but the police sure seem hated. What if no police were there for this?
Would anyone get to the hospital? Would it even be reported or would people just bleed to death? I have no idea, but with the police viewed as just a bunch of corrupt thugs, I suspect no one would care if they never responded. Just no police in that area. Is that what Slime wants?
I'd very much like to sit on the sidelines and just read other's observations on this one but this is making a very far leap and constructing a classic "false dilemma" fallacy. I think everyone on this board who has mentioned knowing police officers has agreed that the majority of officers are good while a minority abuse power. But to say that communities should accept the few instances of egregious abuse at the expense of not having a police force altogether is ridiculous.
The Pittsburgh metro area has had a few high-profile police abuse cases over the years (the one that stands out is Johnny Gammage). But it seems there is an assumption that every metro area of a similar size would have the same abuses just because the police are there. I could be wrong but I think it is wholly possible to effectively run a police operation in a high crime area without a kid ever being chased down and beaten. That is something this group of officers chose to do on their own volition and will never be considered an effective law enforcement tactic.
In a concealed weapons permit class I took in Florida, law enforcement taught (and was taught) to always use pepper spray even if you have a gun and are licensed to use it because you can "always come back from" an error in judgement in using pepper spray. Errors in using guns or clubs to the head (which is considered usage of lethal force or intent to kill) are not so easily remedied. The example of using law enforcement strategies in Miami are laughable because for a long time they were considered the poster children of police corruption and usage of excessive force. Miami PD was the LAPD before the LAPD was the LAPD if that makes any sense!
Quick note: I am incorrect even in this post. I did a quick "Google Search" to see if there were any American metropolitan areas roughly around the same size of Pittsburgh but did not have any instances of police assaults and all of them seemed to have paid out in civil suits concerning police brutality or at least had very credible accusations of police brutality (mainly video). I would be interested (and encouraged) if anyone could find an instance of a large metro area where the police force in the core city has not had any instances of police brutality or wrongful death.
Last edited by Steelers10; 08-11-2012 at 11:32 PM..
Reason: Did some research
Second, have any of you ever had to wrestle a man, or even a child to the ground? It is a violent endeavor, and very dangerous and even more so when that person may have a weapon. When I worked in the hospital I've seen security pushed around by ten and eleven year old boys who were throwing fits of rage. It takes at least three strong men to hold even a kid down, better yet a adolescent. It is actually amazing he had no broken bones, but make no mistake about it he was resisting. He ran and then fought them to the very end. Remember it was dark, it was cold, and you always assume they are armed. People are so quick to judge but have never actually had to restrain or fight another to know what that experience is like. Imagine that person just might have a weapon. Your choices to do or not to do may mean the difference between you going home or to the hospital. Add to that the number of homicides and shootings in Homewood, a gun rich environment.
So the potential for him having a weapon justifies punching him in the face until he looks like this:
I question what experience you've had with forcibly restraining people yourself. Not what you've seen from the efforts of an out of shape rent a cop trying to restrain someone, but what you personally have experience with. It doesn't take three men to hold down an unarmed teenager who is half their size. Looking like the above photos after attempting to evade police (knowingly or unknowingly) is the exception, not the rule, because what you're saying about the difficulties of restraining another human being isn't true.
Interesting...After reading thru over 100 responses I will say this, EVERYTHING comes down to race. Like it or not these are the times we're living in... Back in June on a Sat. evening I drove out to the Robinson Golden Corral. Upon arriving I figured i'd answer a few texts, etc. After about 3 mins I had a cop asking me what I was doing. After ten minutes there were 3 squad cars. I was taken out and searched (CCW w/glock ) thoroughly. Before I go any further let me add that i'm bi-racial (BM/WW).People(cops) have a hard time distinguishing what my ethnicity is so that is going to make them feel uneasy. Add to the fact that i'm 6'7" 230lbs.( the looks on their faces when I stepped out of the car). The mistakes that I made on my end were that I had a fitted Yankee cap on with a gold chain showing. Driving a 93 deville in excellent condition and lastly...I should've have kept it moving instead of sitting in my car. Now before everyone says that theses are islolated incidents let me stress this. This has happened to me atleast 3 times this year...smh...The areas...Robinson, Baldwin, and Pleasant Hills.
Interesting...After reading thru over 100 responses I will say this, EVERYTHING comes down to race. Like it or not these are the times we're living in... Back in June on a Sat. evening I drove out to the Robinson Golden Corral. Upon arriving I figured i'd answer a few texts, etc. After about 3 mins I had a cop asking me what I was doing. After ten minutes there were 3 squad cars. I was taken out and searched (CCW w/glock ) thoroughly. Before I go any further let me add that i'm bi-racial (BM/WW).People(cops) have a hard time distinguishing what my ethnicity is so that is going to make them feel uneasy. Add to the fact that i'm 6'7" 230lbs.( the looks on their faces when I stepped out of the car). The mistakes that I made on my end were that I had a fitted Yankee cap on with a gold chain showing. Driving a 93 deville in excellent condition and lastly...I should've have kept it moving instead of sitting in my car. Now before everyone says that theses are islolated incidents let me stress this. This has happened to me atleast 3 times this year...smh...The areas...Robinson, Baldwin, and Pleasant Hills.
Coincidence..I'll let you all decide.
It's not a coincidence. I can sit in my car for hours texting and suburban police wouldn't even notice me. BUT if I were doing it in a predominantly black area in the city, the police would stop and question me. Whenever any of us are out of our element, police think we're up to no good, regardless of race, and question us. It's sad but true. This is all irrelevant to this thread though because Jordan was in a neighborhood where his race was prevalent. It doesn't seem like the police had any reason, racial or otherwise, to question him.
How do you know they didn't identify themselves? Were you standing right there when it all went down? Nope. And let's see, they see a black male in a bad area standing around near a house with a "bulge" in his pocket and thought it could've been a gun. I think that's PLENTY probable cause to at least stop and talk to him. His mistake was he ran. If he wouldn't have ran, this would've ended completely different. But hey, if you wanna say you know exactly what happened, then by all means, think what you want. I support the police in this situation.
How do you know if they did identify themselves? The question goes both ways. What troubles me about this incident is the Swollen head and missing hair from the Honor Roll students head.
Not only that, but that entire post is so far out there, it makes no sense. "White thugs"? What does that mean? If you are order to stop by police, you stop. If you feel they are not police, then you stop and have a look for yourself. Have your escape at the ready. I have been stopped by a non officer years ago in a very rural area in WV in the middle of the night. I stopped, but wasn't sure about it all. Kept the car running and was ready. I ended up taking off. I did stop though. If I didn't, I might have gone to jail. It is just one of those things. Real police know how to identify themselves and they do it well. Do people really think they want conflict? Death can be the result of it. Plenty of cops shot and killed around here. They don't want trouble.
To me this doesn't make any sense. You're telling me you would stop for someone in a HIGH CRIME area because the identified themselves as cops. What if you spot a hand gun and you're unarmed. I am sorry I wouldn't have stopped until I was in a well lit area with a bunch of witnesses. I am not saying this because I am from Homewood.
So the potential for him having a weapon justifies punching him in the face until he looks like this:
I question what experience you've had with forcibly restraining people yourself. Not what you've seen from the efforts of an out of shape rent a cop trying to restrain someone, but what you personally have experience with. It doesn't take three men to hold down an unarmed teenager who is half their size. Looking like the above photos after attempting to evade police (knowingly or unknowingly) is the exception, not the rule, because what you're saying about the difficulties of restraining another human being isn't true.
"My experience" is that I have trained others to restrain children and have literally in my almost twenty years working in schools, hospitals, and communities have restrained hundreds of children as part of my job. No I am not a policeman, as their training is different. But, I am not commenting or speculating outside my experience. I followed the trail, and sifted thru as much evidence that was presented.
Yes, it does take considerable effort to restrain and subdue another, and of course, it depends on the person, as some are better fighters. Children can be some of the most difficult to restrain because they are more supple, flexiable, and better conditioned and will fight longer. They at times can actually dislocate their limbs in a fight, break their own bones, flailing around.
Your problem is that you are looking at a photo and reacting emotionally and are searching for evidence to support you own distorted thinking.
Yes, it does take considerable effort to restrain and subdue another, and of course, it depends on the person, as some are better fighters. Children can be some of the most difficult to restrain because they are more supple, flexiable, and better conditioned and will fight longer. They at times can actually dislocate their limbs in a fight, break their own bones, flailing around.
I totally agree with your statement. I'm in this line of work, not police but I won't get into that, and have to subdue people all the time. So I know first hand how hard it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitts10yrs
Your problem is that you are looSking at a photo and reacting emotionally and are searching for evidence to support you own distorted thinking.
How do you know if they did identify themselves? The question goes both ways. What troubles me about this incident is the Swollen head and missing hair from the Honor Roll students head.
Do I know 100%? No. But I can say I'm about 90% positive and here's why...
The 99 car in the city has 2 officers minimum in it. These officers aren't just random officers picked for that job. They are officers that are good at what they do and show day in and day out that they are capable of performing the job the correct way. I know plenty of them in the city and can 100% vouch for them. So with that being said, your going to tell me that this one instance just so happens to be the one time when not 2 but all 3 officers got out of the car and NEVER identified themselves? Cut me a break
To me this doesn't make any sense. You're telling me you would stop for someone in a HIGH CRIME area because the identified themselves as cops. What if you spot a hand gun and you're unarmed. I am sorry I wouldn't have stopped until I was in a well lit area with a bunch of witnesses. I am not saying this because I am from Homewood.
Lets face it. For you, I am a white guy in the suburbs and... well as I have read your posts, not exactly a friend of yours.
I have pointed out my opinion and said I would do as officers say. I would. Simple as that. I have been stopped in WV in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere by a fake cop. I handled it and took off, but I did stop and have a look. If I didn't and was wrong... well who knows? We make choices. We live with them.
No way you can convict the cops on what has been said by both sides. No way. No evidence is strong enough. I am the enemy for you. I know that. I lived in Highland Park/East Liberty/Larimer for several years before needing a good school. There was gunfire, blah, blah, but I liked it there. I only had a few situations that weren't good. I could have made choices that may have ended my life. I have been confronted by kids with "hoodies" and such in an alley. I parked in one, so yeah. I played it cool and was ready to hand money over if I had to. Submit so to speak if needed. I muscled up, but had backup plans. It is called being street smart. Jordan Miles wasn't street smart. I can't help that.
Look, we will never see eye to eye. I am your enemy. I know that. Some whitey from the burbs. Sure I lived in Miami in a crap area. Broke down in Overtown and survived... sort of. Been around 79th Street at night back in the day. I can handle. Been to Gandy's and a few other places... yep a white guy. Don't kid yourself my friend, you don't know me for real. Just that I am whitey from FC. Well, I am here now, but didn't grow up here.
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