What can I do to fix Pittsburgh's problems? (Erie, Scranton: sales, houses)

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

There are some laws re: the interstate highway system. When the interstates were first built, with federal money, they were to be completely free. Since then, some changes in law have been made so that some roads that were already toll roads (Pa Turnpike, Illinois Tollway, NY Thruway, etc), could be part of the interstate system. I think that is what is meant by the ethics of it.

I do not see making I-80 a toll road to bail out the big transit systems a good use of money. I also think the trucking industry would fight it, big time. If Pennsylvania did it, every state would want to do it. I-80 is "the nation's highway", one of the few interstates that is transcontinental.

It seems as tractor-trailer drivers are now protesting that in order to punish legislators for potentially making I-80 a toll road, they'll be driving their big rigs through small towns on narrow two-lane roadways in order to avoid paying the tolls. That's even better news! Now not only do those of us who frequent I-80 have to get bent out of shape because all of the money we're paying will benefit cities hours away from us, but now also we'll have to worry about pedestrians in quaint small towns playing a game of "Frog*er" with hundreds of tractor-trailers! There was a recent local story on WNEP-TV 16 (ABC-Scranton) about the problems the small nearby town of White Haven, PA, in the Poconos, is having because tractor-trailers are being forced to use the town's narrow, outdated streets due to a restriction on a stretch of I-80 near town. Curbs are being destroyed, utility poles are getting whacked, parked cars are being bumped, people are being kept awake at night by "jake brakes", etc. It seems as if our state lawmakers quite honestly don't care about anyone except for the two large cities (moreso Philadelphia though). We've been waiting for an expansion of I-81 through our metro for decades now, as well as funding for a proposed commuter rail link between NEPA and NYC to alleviate the gridlock on I-80. We don't get a dime, and then we're being asked to pay even more to help bail out mass transit systems hours away that SHOULD be able to offset their own expenditures via ridership revenues? That seems highly unfair to me.

If I-80 becomes a toll road, then our state better do SOMETHING to help "give back" to places like my area, which will receive virtually no benefit from these tolls, or else they're going to be facing a riot, as a lot of people from I-80 northward are angry and upset over this while people in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh are keeping quiet because they barely use I-80 the way it is.

[guylocke]

If I-80 becomes a toll road, then our state better do SOMETHING to help "give back" to places like my area

Now this I couldn't agree with more. :P

[kpoeppel]

Originally Posted by boylocke

Ethical? LOL. I seriously doubt ethics is involved when tolling roads. hahahaha. We aren't curing cancer here.

I think it's a great idea.

You don't think ethics are involved when taking money from some people, and giving it to other people? Incredible!

[kpoeppel]

Originally Posted by boylocke

Why is that a bad idea? Is Pittsburgh and Philadelphia not the industrial hubs of the state and where the bulk of the population lives and plays? Are they not where the vast amount of revenue for the state come from and the two highest grossing tourist destinations? Pittsburgh and Philadelphia are the cultural, industrial, educational, financial, media, and sports centers of the state.

I think it's a great idea to fund the infrastructure of Pittsburgh and Philadelphia with I-80 tolling. You aren't seeing the big picture. We are all playing for the same team. Improvements in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia will improve the welfare of the state as whole and cause a rippling effect. This could be a very successful endeavor.

However, I am sympathetic to the locals up there, too. I'm not sure if something like this would ever come to pass, but I think locals who use the road on a daily basis just to get to and from work, for example, should get certain breaks and incentives for those type of situations, etc.

It always seems like a good idea when someone is forced to give money to you, doesn't it? I'm not sure you'd think it was such a great idea if the money was going the other direction.

[guylocke]

It always seems like a good idea when someone is forced to give money to you, doesn't it? I'm not sure you'd think it was such a great idea if the money was going the other direction.

Welcome to the real world. Money is always being filtered out of my pocket and into someone else's. We can only hope it goes on to benefit the greater good. I live very close to the PA turnpike. They take money from me. I get over it. People paying state taxes in Pittsburgh see a lot of their money go to Philadelphia. People paying taxes in Erie see a lot of their money going to Pittsburgh. Is it ethical? Erm, I don't think a debate on ethics is warranted. Using I-80 as a toll road to benefit the state is just as normal as any other way to fund a project, in my opinion.

Maybe Ed Rendell should just raise taxes, is that better? At least using I-80 as a toll road won't only affect locals. In fact, I think people out of state will bear the brunt of those tolls. It's quite innovative, actually. The road is used extensively by travelers and truckers driving across the state. They want to utilize a nice straight road built by Pennsylvania, then pay for it and benefit our state. This isn't a new concept and it certainly isn't the first time a state has enacted such a thing.

[kpoeppel]

Originally Posted by boylocke

Welcome to the real world. Money is always being filtered out of my pocket and into someone else's.

And is that morally right? Precisely why the tolling issue is an ethical issue. You pay a toll on the turnpike to maintain and improve the turnpike...that's not unethical. Taking money from users of a highway and giving it to something completely unrelated...that's not ethical.

As for the "real world" comment...just because something "is" doesn't mean something "ought to be."

[guylocke]

Yeah, and Pennsylvania's will pay a toll to maintain and improve Pennsylvania. What's the difference. You aren't seeing the big picture.

Like I said, the economy of Pittsburgh and Philadelphia is directly correlated with the success and growth of Pennsylvania. An improvement in the infrastructures of these two cities and thus larger growth in the business and residential sectors of these areas will benefit all of Pennsylvania. In many ways, it is Pittsburgh and Philly that pay your retirement, that fuel the state programs, that gives CHIP to your children, and PACE to your elderly, etc.

It's all about perspective and Ed Rendell doesn't have every option in the world at his disposal. He could raise taxes across the board to benefit Pittsburgh and Philadelphia but then the entire state of Pennsylvania would be paying for just two metro areas. Surely that is a big no-no on your ethical scale, too.

I mean I'm sorry I seem like the bad guy that wants to take money from people and give it to my city, but placing myself outside of the box, I would probably agree with the initiative even if I wasn't from Pittsburgh. I mean, it makes sense from a fiscal and economic standpoint.

[Katiana]

I think SWB has a good point when he says that people in Pgh and Philly don't drive much on I-80 anyway, so they won't realize much of the financial pain of this plan. Up his way, a lot of people drive it every day. This is the world of politics - tax those who can't avoid paying the tax, benefit those who aren't paying the tax for those benefits. For Pgh and Philly, it's a win/win situation; for the I-80 towns, a lose/lose situation. There is not much public transit in the towns along the I-80 corridor. I do question the legality of being able to make I-80 a toll road in the first place, though I guess if it's a serious proposal, that has been looked at. Maybe not!

They want to utilize a nice straight road built by Pennsylvania, then pay for it and benefit our state.

I-80 was built with federal funds. That is a big part of the "ethics" argument.

[kpoeppel]

Originally Posted by boylocke

Yeah, and Pennsylvania's will pay a toll to maintain and improve Pennsylvania. What's the difference. You aren't seeing the big picture.

Like I said, the economy of Pittsburgh and Philadelphia is directly correlated with the success and growth of Pennsylvania. An improvement in the infrastructures of these two cities and thus larger growth in the business and residential sectors of these areas will benefit all of Pennsylvania. In many ways, it is Pittsburgh and Philly that pay your retirement, that fuel the state programs, that gives CHIP to your children, and PACE to your elderly, etc.

It's all about perspective and Ed Rendell doesn't have every option in the world at his disposal. He could raise taxes across the board to benefit Pittsburgh and Philadelphia but then the entire state of Pennsylvania would be paying for just two metro areas. Surely that is a big no-no on your ethical scale, too.

I mean I'm sorry I seem like the bad guy that wants to take money from people and give it to my city, but placing myself outside of the box, I would probably agree with the initiative even if I wasn't from Pittsburgh. I mean, it makes sense from a fiscal and economic standpoint.

So your argument is that Pittsburgh and Philly are the engines of economic growth for PA, and yet they need the assistance of the rest of the state since they can't seem to pay for their own transit systems. So which is it? Is the state dependent on Philly and Pittsburgh, or are Philly and Pittsburgh dependent on the state? It would seem that the I-80 tolling proposal indicates the latter. If Pittsburgh and Philly are the only real prosperous areas of the state, than let them pay for their own stuff, and stop taxing everyone else.

[guylocke]

I-80 was built with federal funds. That is a big part of the "ethics" argument.

That's true, what was I thinking?

I do question the legality of being able to make I-80 a toll road in the first place, though I guess if it's a serious proposal, that has been looked at. Maybe not!

I think it's pretty much a done deal. This year the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, combined with state legislature Act No. 44 initiated the plans to enact the tolling system on I-80 but it won't go into effect until 2011.

I mean, I guess now it just comes down to the argument if it's right or wrong, because it's pretty much definitely going to happen.