What can I do to fix Pittsburgh's problems? (Philadelphia, Denver: construction, school)
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So your argument is that Pittsburgh and Philly are the engines of economic growth for PA, and yet they need the assistance of the rest of the state since they can't seem to pay for their own transit systems.
That's exactly right.
Is the state dependent on Philly and Pittsburgh
Yes, big time.
are Philly and Pittsburgh dependent on the state?
Of course, that's a silly question. They are both dependent on each other.
So what exactly do you want the governor to do? Raise taxes across the board? How about just raise local taxes in Pittsburgh and Philly (MORE than their already exorbitant amount). There's an idea!! Let's chase out MORE business and people and make those areas even more inhospitable to business and residences!! If we raise taxes in those two areas high enough, hell, maybe we'll succeed in destroying their economies and crippling the entire PA economy!!
That's exactly the OPPOSITE of what we want.
I mean you make it sound like Ed Rendell is proposing something that's nonsense. You don't think the state of New York pays a lot of money into keeping New York City the capital of the world? HAH, yes it does.
I think people should pay for their own stuff. It's not a radical concept. If the taxes are too high in Pittsburgh and Philly already, than that means they need to get spending under control. Also, I don't think Pittsburgh and Philly should have to pay for stuff in Erie or Scranton, etc.
Yes, I am aware that New York state pays money to New York City. My brother lives there. Have you ever been to upstate New York? It's an economic wasteland. People are fed up with NYC stealing their money, so they move elsewhere. Don't believe me? Look at population statistics for counties in upstate NY.
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Location: Polish Hill, Pittsburgh, PA
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To put this analogously, the current situation would be like levying a $2 toll each way on the Fort Pitt Tunnel and then telling commuters that the funds would be used to widen I-81 in Scranton. Could you just imagine the uproar that would cause? The tolls on the turnpike are used to maintain the turnpike. The tolls on I-80 will be used to bail out the mass transit systems in two cities that are each at least 90-minutes or so from the I-80 corridor. While boylocke might be right in that this toll system will smack a lot of out-of-staters just sailing through our state, it will also force more gridlock on small-town roadways that bypass I-80 (think Route 11), as well as anger those in my area who rely on I-80 to cross the Delaware River on their daily commutes to NJ and NYC for employment concerns.
To put this analogously, the current situation would be like levying a $2 toll each way on the Fort Pitt Tunnel and then telling commuters that the funds would be used to widen I-81 in Scranton.
That's really not an analogy, because like I've said, it's not Scranton buoying the entire Pennsylvanian economy.
I completely understand what people are saying, I really do. But this was one initiative from the governor that I truly believe could benefit us all. I've already said, also, that I think locals should get breaks and passes for using I-80. The idea isn't to punish the people that use I-80, it's to improve the economic clout of the state starting with the state powerhouses, Pittsburgh and Philly. I'm sorry, it just makes sense to me. I don't mean to be the bad guy.
Is it a perfect idea? Not really. Is raises state taxes? Not really. Is raising taxes in Pittsburgh and Philly? Not really.
The money has to come from somewhere, I'm sure anything on gods green earth the governor would have proposed would have been disputed by some group of people.
Well, I think part of the idea is to put the tax where the Burghers and the Phillys won't pay it. That's politics.
I think highways have been subsidized for many years by gasoline taxes, general fund monies, etc. I have no philosophical problem with tollways. The users are paying for the road, that's fine. I do have problems with tolling the roads to pay for mass transit in Pgh and Philly.
If the mass transit systems in Pgh and Philly need more money than the fare-box brings in, then raise the transit taxes there. We pay .5 cents per dollar sales tax for mass transit here. It is only charged to people living in the Regional Transportation District, as they (we) are the major users.
I think if you did a traffic count on I-80 in PA, you would find that mostly Pennsylvanians are driving it, excluding perhaps the truckers. The trucking industry will just pass the costs of a toll on to the consumers.
To put this analogously, the current situation would be like levying a $2 toll each way on the Fort Pitt Tunnel and then telling commuters that the funds would be used to widen I-81 in Scranton. Could you just imagine the uproar that would cause? The tolls on the turnpike are used to maintain the turnpike. The tolls on I-80 will be used to bail out the mass transit systems in two cities that are each at least 90-minutes or so from the I-80 corridor.
Exactly. It would seem that the users of the transit systems should be the ones paying for it, right? If I want to buy a tube of toothpaste, I don't expect users of the holland tunnel in NYC to pay for it...
It's really no different than any other tax if you get down to the nitty gritty. I mean, I'm not positive, but I would find it extremely hard to believe if a disproportionate amount of tax payer dollars in Colorado weren't filtered to Denver.
Likewise, I do know for a fact that most states filter more money to their industrial and economic hubs. So that means that every tax payer in Pennsylvania is giving way more of their money to Pittsburgh and Philly than any other part of the state.
It's really no different. If people are upset about this, why aren't they writing their congressmen to ensure that every tax they pay doesn't somehow directly benefit where they live or work?
Besides, although this is dubious argument at best, nobody is forcing people to use I-80. If taxes were raised, you wouldn't have a choice. I bet you even people from the north would say "well I guess I'd rather just skip out on I-80 sometimes each week than have it taken right out of my paycheck." Or how about raising the gas tax? Another thing that might as well be taken right out of you paycheck. I'm sure that would go over well, too.
Have you actually read Act 44 to begin with? It's not completely going to Pittsburgh and Philly willie nillie, far from it. It's going to benefit the entire state, including the maintenance on I-80 itself.
“With Act 44, the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission will supply an astonishing $116 Billion to PennDOT for transportation-system upgrades across the state over the next 50 years,” Brimmeier said.
Opponents, too, erroneously predict astronomical I-80 tolls. In reality, tolls on the 311-mile interstate would, by law, mirror existing Turnpike per-mile rates. That means tolls of around $25 to drive across the state in a car while an average tractor-trailer truck would pay less than $100 for the trip — assuming tolls would start in 2011. Under a planned E-ZPass volume-discount program, the Turnpike will offer price cuts — anywhere from 10-20 percent based on their monthly toll bill — to buses and trucks that take I-80. And, since tolls on I-80 will be collected at no more than 10 toll plazas, some free local movement will be possible between fare-collection points. Plus, the commission is considering more ways to reduce costs for frequent I-80 users like commuters and others.
In addition, I-80 will see a number of major upgrades under Act 44. In fact, approximately $2 billion in I-80 safety and operational improvements will be undertaken on the interstate in the first 10 years alone, such as lengthening on and off-ramps at interchanges, building truck-climbing lanes and raising some low-clearance bridges that now force trucks off the highway. In addition, engineers are currently studying what other roadway and pavement repairs could be completed to further enhance I-80.
Last edited by guylocke; 10-14-2007 at 07:30 PM..
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