A few days in Cleveland - Some cross city observations... (Pittsburgh: middle-class, townhouses)

[eschaton]

So, my wife and I decided, being city people (and not wanting to go too far away due to having a small child at my in laws), to spend a couple days in Cleveland around our anniversary. Minus two very short trips (both over five years ago, one to see a concert, and one for work) it was pretty much my first time in Cleveland. Some random thoughts. Apologies to those who know Cleveland well who I am stating the obvious to.

Downtown Cleveland was in some ways better than Downtown Pittsburgh, in other ways worse. On the positive side, there was just a lot more to do in terms of restaurants, clubs, and general nightlife. Part of this was probably a function of geography, as things like the stadiums were downtown, meaning it functioned more similarly to Downtown, the North Shore, and Station Square rolled into one, although the nightlife options as a whole seemed less than even South Side offers in Pittsburgh.

The big negative? Even though downtown definitely had "play" and "live" going on (a lot more people seem to live in downtown Cleveland than Pittsburgh), "work" was a definite not so much. Downtown was dead dead dead during the day, even during the middle of the week, even during lunch hour. There were literally more people on the streets after dark than before.

We spent some time in Ohio City, which is one train stop (back to that later), to the east of downtown. We heard it was one of the most popular "gentrifying" neighborhoods in Cleveland. It was in some ways most comparable to the Northside in Pittsburgh, in that it was across the river from Downtown and one of the oldest neighborhoods in Cleveland. It also fell on hard times until its recent revival as an "artisan" neighborhood, although unlike the Northside the working-class white residents were partially replaced by not only blacks but Latinos until the yuppies moved in and began displacing them. It should be noted despite the neighborhood being somewhat analogous to the Northside, and of roughly the same vintage in terms of housing age, it doesn't look similar at all - houses in Cleveland are wood frame and detached, and look far more like things I saw in New England growing up than anything in Pittsburgh. Regardless, while there was a cute little area of bars, restaurants, and boutiques, it was tiny, and petered out within basically a two-by-two square block area. I'm sure it's convenient for a resident, but as someone visiting it wore a bit thin.

We also stopped by University Circle, as my wife wanted to see the new MoCA. University Circle in some ways is analogous to Oakland, as it's the location of a major university, hospitals, and the location of Cleveland's major museums. However, it's further from the core than Oakland is from Pittsburgh. It also seems that there was either originally nothing there or there was a ton of "urban renewal", as just about everything near but not actually on Case Western's campus is contemporary infill architecture. Some of it was quite nice, but it was odd compared to the dense, historic urban feel of Oakland - it felt as if residential towers sprung out of virgin ground or something. There was no direction I couldn't look and see a new building being erected. Since it was adjacent, we also walked into Little Italy. It doesn't hold a candle to Bloomfield, as it is tiny in comparison, and feels in some ways more like a refurbished old New England mill town than anything.

Two more general thoughts.

1. Cleveland, despite having worse woes than us in many ways, is light years ahead of Pittsburgh in terms of transportation. They have trolleybuses with their own dedicated lanes! They have three different rail lines, all of which are convenient to not only the suburbs, but for travel inside the city! University Circle had a ton of TOD construction (infill townhouses which were quite nice) perched directly by the red line. Cleveland beats us here hands down. How do they have the money for this stuff, and we do not?

2. One odd observation. At every restaurant we went to in Downtown and Ohio City (although not University Circle), there were black people. Everywhere we went there were black professionals having work lunches, young middle-class black couples out on dates, and mixed-race groups of friends hanging out. We did not go to particularly black-friendly restaurants, just the same sort of places (e.g., somewhat vegan friendly) we go to in Pittsburgh. I know Cleveland is 53% black, whereas Pittsburgh is only 26% (plus Cleveland is around 25% bigger), but it seemed to be a bit more than that. Either Cleveland has a significantly larger black middle class than Pittsburgh, it feels more comfortable socializing in the same places as the white population, or both. Still, Pittsburgh doesn't come off good in this particular comparison.

I know I covered a lot of ground here. Maybe I should have broken this up into a few threads.

[GregHenry]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The big negative? Even though downtown definitely had "play" and "live" going on (a lot more people seem to live in downtown Cleveland than Pittsburgh), "work" was a definite not so much. Downtown was dead dead dead during the day, even during the middle of the week, even during lunch hour. There were literally more people on the streets after dark than before.

Interesting observation, but it really doesn't matter. Outside of a couple cities that still need them, downtowns are annoying anachronisms. People prefer to do commerce in the suburbs. Downtowns are largely legacy infrastructure to which some mid-level cities foolishly devote excessive resources to keep up appearances in tourism brochures.

2. One odd observation. At every restaurant we went to in Downtown and Ohio City (although not University Circle), there were black people. Everywhere we went there were black professionals having work lunches, young middle-class black couples out on dates, and mixed-race groups of friends hanging out.

That's normal for cities. Pittsburgh is anomalous in its racial homogeneity.

I know I covered a lot of ground here. Maybe I should have broken this up into a few threads.

Cleveland is a great town. Don't overlook its great interstate system, its gorgeous lakefront, the West Side Market, its flatter topography, its cleaner appearance, its easier and better street system, Slyman's corned beef, its attempt at a street grid and the presence of White Castle, Speedway Gas and Famous Dave's BBQ. Plus, Cleveland feels normal, as it's a Midwestern city.

I see Cleveland still being relevant a century from now.

P.S. I vastly prefer Murray Hill to Bloomfield.

[jimmyev]

Originally Posted by GregHenry

its gorgeous lakefront

What gorgeous lakefront? It's a stadium, small park, two museums, a submarine and a steamship surrounded by a highway, parking lots and an airport. It's not very pleasant walking from downtown to the lakefront either because you have to go under/over the highway. Chicago, now there is a gorgeous lakefront. And Cleveland could have been the same...

[GregHenry]

Originally Posted by jimmyev

What gorgeous lakefront? It's a stadium, small park, two museums, a submarine and a steamship surrounded by a highway, parking lots and an airport. It's not very pleasant walking from downtown to the lakefront either because you have to go under/over the highway. Chicago, now there is a gorgeous lakefront. And Cleveland could have been the same...

Evidently, you've never seen Cleveland's Edgewater Park.

Let's not compare Cleveland or Pittsburgh to Chicago.

Google Streetview 10015 Cliff Drive in Cleveland. Gorgeous.

[LIRefugee]

Moderator cut: completely off topic

I'd like to see Pittsburgh expand its light rail at least as much as cities such Cleveland or St. Louis have, but there seems to be something of a funding-crisis-by-choice situation at the state level.

My wife and I are planning on taking a similar trip to Cleveland in the near term, it'll be interesting to see how well our observations match up with yours (I'm sure they will be similar).

[MathmanMathman]

White Castle? Their culinary equivalent is Krystal which is a mediocre burger at best.

And what is so special about pumping Speedway gas?

Slyman's Cornbeef and Dave's BBQ will certainly keep Cleveland relevant well into the next century.

Really, the Midwest will probably struggle to remain relevant over the years. What does Cleveland have to carry it into the 21st century? It looks as if Pittsburgh will enjoy a second life in the energy sector.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by GregHenry

Google Streetview 10015 Cliff Drive in Cleveland. Gorgeous.

Not much of a place you can hang around though. You just drive there, take a look, then go.

[MathmanMathman]

Moderator cut: orphaned

I'd like to see Pittsburgh expand its light rail at least as much as cities such Cleveland or St. Louis have, but there seems to be something of a funding-crisis-by-choice situation at the state level

Cleveland does have a (I think) heavy rail line from their airport to their downtown. Definite plus. Now if CMU can engineer a way to put down light rail at a low price, that'd be useful.

[GregHenry]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

Cleveland does have a (I think) heavy rail line from their airport to their downtown. Definite plus. Now if CMU can engineer a way to put down light rail at a low price, that'd be useful.

Think it through. Unless you do park-n-rides, Pittsburgh can't have rail, because there's no way to walk from the residential areas to the train stations.

So, sure, you can put in rail, but you need big parking lots at the stops, and everyone will still have a car commute, twice a day, just hopefully a shorter one.

Anyway, Pittsburgh built those busways, so you know they're not thinking too heavily about rail.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by GregHenry

Think it through. Unless you do park-n-rides, Pittsburgh can't have rail, because there's no way to walk from the residential areas to the train stations.

Whatever you say