Are free rides a good idea?

[captainmidnight]

The rides to the North Shore are free because Alco Parking, the Casino, and Steelers paid for it. I think the agreement has an end date, but I'd be surprised if they didn't renew the agreement. With PAT's current financial state, they need all the fare revenue they can get. Maybe someday in the future when correct and viable transportation funding is finally implemented PAT can afford to offer rides to Station Square for free. Until that day happens, someone else will have to pay for it and the only people who could do so are the Station Square owners. I believe it is for sale, so maybe the new owners may want to do something like sponsor free or reduced fares.

I'd like to see data that explains if the North Shore expansion is popular because of the area it serves, thee free cost to ride, a combination of both, or some other reason(s). Would Station Square see an increase in riders if the cost was free or only if the Station Square area became more attractive, or both? Interesting questions to me at least.

Personally, I say to include Station Square in the Free Zone. Make it consistent. To the infrequent rider or visitor, they see it is free to cross one river on the T but $2.50 to for the other. And if that infrequent rider or visitor is riding during peak time and paying with cash, there is the 75 cent surcharge on top of that. I'm sure those rules and exceptions are maddening to said people. Day passes and ConnectCard distribution in vending machines (the machines are there now, they just have to add the card procurement ability) will help but PAT needs to standardize things. They took a good step towards that with the TDP of a few years ago. I feel that PAT does just enough to get by, but they could do a lot more. They are slow to update their policies and systems to be like other major transit agencies in the USA (For example: pay entry at all times/exit rear doors, real time information, ConnectCard rollout [online management is not even in trial testing yet], andDay/Visitor pass). I know their funding has a lot to do with it and I hope one day that is not the case.

[pman]

Originally Posted by quackxp

My fiancee and I go to a good number of the big downtown events. We usually stay in the north shore and downtown area when looking for something to eat. If the T was free to station square I'm sure we would visit more.

The would be good for everybody but the gateway clipper as it would bring more people to station square. The clipper would take a hit on its Station Square to Heinz Field shuttle.

But it seems like the Station Square businesses think they are doing fine on their own and don't want to pay to subside T access.

I gues my initial thought was, this very scenario wouldn't be beneficial to downtown at all. it might be for station square (though personally there isn't anything there worth the trip to eat even for free but that's besides the point.

Originally Posted by that412

Define "paying for," because I can't imagine it's more than a drop in the bucket of what it actually costs to operate the T between Downtown and the North Shore, let alone for free. And that's not even getting into the monumental waste of money that it took to actually build the thing to begin with.

the north shore interests are paying $360k per year which likely includes annual expenses related to operating it (power, track surfacing, lighting, etc) but not capital. the bigger question, to me, is that foregone fares net of costs or just costs and which is more money? yes, I don't think most transit people (not even including anti-transit people) would have picked the routing (sharp turn, miss all population centers) let alone that project if you were to say "you have $550 million to improve city transit go to town."
perhaps the bigger question is whether fitz has his priorities straight. first he cans the first ceo of PAT that actually oversaw improvement in all metrics related to transit now he's worry about free fares to station square. are there not bigger problems?

[that412]

Originally Posted by bmantz65

The rides to the North Shore are free because Alco Parking, the Casino, and Steelers paid for it. I think the agreement has an end date, but I'd be surprised if they didn't renew the agreement. With PAT's current financial state, they need all the fare revenue they can get. Maybe someday in the future when correct and viable transportation funding is finally implemented PAT can afford to offer rides to Station Square for free. Until that day happens, someone else will have to pay for it and the only people who could do so are the Station Square owners. I believe it is for sale, so maybe the new owners may want to do something like sponsor free or reduced fares.

I'd like to see data that explains if the North Shore expansion is popular because of the area it serves, thee free cost to ride, a combination of both, or some other reason(s). Would Station Square see an increase in riders if the cost was free or only if the Station Square area became more attractive, or both? Interesting questions to me at least.

Personally, I say to include Station Square in the Free Zone. Make it consistent. To the infrequent rider or visitor, they see it is free to cross one river on the T but $2.50 to for the other. And if that infrequent rider or visitor is riding during peak time and paying with cash, there is the 75 cent surcharge on top of that. I'm sure those rules and exceptions are maddening to said people.

Again, I'm not convinced that the sponsorship deals are making a huge dent in the actual operating cost of a no-fare rail system between Downtown and the North Shore. Nor am I convinced that PAT, even in its constant financial straits, would be in big trouble if they lost all of the fares from people who take the T only between Station Square and Downtown, or vice versa - as you pointed out, it's just really not too attractive an option for the "infrequent rider," as you put it, when faced with paying $2.50 just to cross a bridge, so I do wonder how many people are bothering to do it.

And I would submit that Station Square is certainly "attractive" in its own right. It's arguably got a better night life scene than either the Golden Triangle or the North Shore, it's got lots of places to eat, a mall, plus the Inclines are over there, and now the Riverhounds stadium, too.

If anything, I could see the North Shore stakeholders whinging - "we're paying for this, so why shouldn't they?" - being a much bigger problem than the Port Authority actually not being able to afford including Station Square in the free fare zone.

Day passes and ConnectCard distribution in vending machines (the machines are there now, they just have to add the card procurement ability) will help but PAT needs to standardize things. They took a good step towards that with the TDP of a few years ago. I feel that PAT does just enough to get by, but they could do a lot more. They are slow to update their policies and systems to be like other major transit agencies in the USA (For example: pay entry at all times/exit rear doors, real time information, ConnectCard rollout [online management is not even in trial testing yet], andDay/Visitor pass). I know their funding has a lot to do with it and I hope one day that is not the case.

Remember when the Port Authority received an enormous gift, and they spent practically all of it and more on a half-mile tunnel?

That was their chance to really transform itself into one of the better medium-urban transit systems in the country, including implementation and perfection of many of the things you just cited. Instead, that opportunity was squandered on a financial black hole that had no shortage of practical alternatives.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by that412

Remember when the Port Authority received an enormous gift, and they spent practically all of it and more on a half-mile tunnel?

The North Shore Connector the child with many fathers. Certainly at no point did the Port Authority get a gift of that amount of money to spend as it wished or even spend on other capital projects.

How did Port Authority get into this deep, expensive hole of river tunnel? - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

[pman]

the NSC is what happens when parking so dominates political thinking that it even drives transit expansion, the nsc being essentially a really expensive parking and attraction shuttle.
If I'm not mistaken the original spine line sensibly ran from east liberty to downtown but I doubt it was ever supposed to make several sharp turns on its way to the north side and skip the population centers. heck, the T is underground simply because they wanted more space on the smithfield st bridge for cars.

[Strelok]

I'm glad I don't have to deal with the T or PAT anymore to go to work at Station Square. It was a complete nightmare riding the T for 2 weeks.

I feel bad for businesses like the Clipper Fleet that would be hit even harder by this. They are a Pittsburgh staple IMO.

And really PAT shouldn't even be in a position to offer "free" anything.

I am still trying to get over laughing from their 500+ million construction of an underground tunnel that only spans a mile. There seems to be much more immediate concerns.

PAT is a joke

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by Strelok

I'm glad I don't have to deal with the T or PAT anymore to go to work at Station Square. It was a complete nightmare riding the T for 2 weeks.

I feel bad for businesses like the Clipper Fleet that would be hit even harder by this. They are a Pittsburgh staple IMO.

And really PAT shouldn't even be in a position to offer "free" anything.

I am still trying to get over laughing from their 500+ million construction of an underground tunnel that only spans a mile. There seems to be much more immediate concerns.

PAT is a joke

I will agree that PAT is a joke, full of patronage jobs. But, the one thing I think they did right was the T. I lived in Dormont for about 5 years and loved being able to take the T to Station Square, then jumping on a Clipper to go to a Bucco game. Now you can take it directly to the Stadium. No doubt it will hurt the Clipper fleet.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Strelok

... There seems to be much more immediate concerns.

...

It's not PAT pushing it but the county. seems like fitzgerald should have bigger fish to fry like getting the avrr project built by forcing avrr and buncher to compromise and trying to find funding to match the private dollars.