One thing that really is Pittsburgh's fault (Philadelphia, Harrisburg: bus, light rail)

[trackstar13]

Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist

I'm referring to the population.

I was partially joking, but in the case of population maybe you should compare density or a similar size area of Philly with that of Pittsburgh. Comparing absolute numbers can be deceiving in this case because of the topography differences and land size of the cities. Pittsburgh actually has a denser population than that of Houston and many other larger cities. Maybe it is just a pet peeve of mine, but I hate when people rank cities by absolute population numbers and compare and contrast. For instance, the population of Austin is listed at almost 3 times that of Pittsburgh, but Austin feels much smaller than Pittsburgh as a city/metro. That may change with all of the recent growth, but it is just weird seeing places like Riverside(CA) and Corpus Christi(TX) listed as bigger cities than Pittsburgh.

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist

First of all Philly, is 5 times the size of Pittsburgh. And I don't care what you say, it pays to have a more populous and dense urban core and inner ring suburbs because the state cannot simply ignore you. SEPTA, for instance, has a much stronger case to make for resources to the state because of the city's size and the amount of people (both inside and outside of the city) who depend on the system. Even if it shrinks, it still won't face the same level of cuts that Port Authority does every year, even though 29% of households here do not have cars. Big cities almost always get better public services than small ones, whether you're talking about Chicago, New York, Philly, S.F., Miami, Houston, or Atlanta. That's the way it goes. Of course, many of the local yokels bellyache about not wanting to be anything like those other places, but I assume they drive everywhere.

The state is ignoring SEPTA problems as well as PAT... that doesn't reflect much state "Political" Power to me!... SEPTA is much better run than PAT. But still doesn't have Clout at state level to get the Transportation bill passed now did it. If you really researched at all, recent history will show that Philadelphia doesn't get any more attention from the state than Pittsburgh. Pennsylvania (politics) treats the cities as equals, population differences be damned.

i.e. Why did the state (Ed Rendell of all Governors) invest in Pittsburgh's North Shore Connector, and Philly can't get PA to back the Extension of the Broad Street Subway to the Navy Yards, if Philly simply has the "More" political muscle in Harrisburg.

NYC and Chicago are on another level in Political Muscle in their respective States than Philly and Pittsburgh, you just can't argue it any other way.

[Devout Urbanist]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

If you really researched at all, recent history will show that Philadelphia doesn't get any more attention from the state than Pittsburgh. Pennsylvania (politics) treats the cities as equals, population differences be damned.

Your "research" amounts to nothing more than a passing reference to the North Shore connector, hardly a public transportation triumph, as if that makes the two systems equal in service and support, and the same old song and dance about how rural PA is at the root of all of Pittsburgh's problems. Gimme a break. If the city wants better services and more clout then it needs to attract more people, plain and simple.

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist

Your "research" amounts to nothing more than a passing reference to the North Shore connector, hardly a public transportation triumph, as if that makes the two systems equal in service and support, and the same old song and dance about how rural PA is at the root of all of Pittsburgh's problems. Gimme a break. If the city wants better services and more clout then it needs to attract more people, plain and simple.

Ok - How bout the Stadiums, Convention Center and Casino....All Pittsburgh got funded from the State before Philadelphia.

Again your "Everything leads back to population" is a flawed argument in terms of Pennsylvania because it simply doesn't operate that way. Side note both Philly and Pittsburgh got the majority of their state funded boondoggles while both Cities were losing population not gaining.

Anyone who sits up and tries to deny that Rural PA holds the majority of the Political weight in Harrisburg is obviously someone who just doesn't pay attention.

[captainmidnight]

Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist

Yeah, you remind me of the fact that it can actually go both ways. Having a more populous city can make you less dependent on the state. Pittsburgh is probably more dependent on the state than Philly because it has fewer people--fewer people to tax locally, fewer people to pay bus fares. How do you make up for the loss of local funds? Presumably, the state. So if the city doesn't want to be at the mercy of the state it should attract more people. Folks in the city really can't complain about the treatment they receive from the state if they are going to act like they live in a small town. Rural PA serves as a convenient scapegoat for local shortcomings.

This is kind of a chicken or the egg scenario. One way to attract more people to the city/metro area is to have a quality transit system. PAT can't improve too much more without increased funding. The majority of their funding comes from the state. The county contributes more to PAT than the city of Pittsburgh does. So what to do? Sure there are other ways to attract more people, but a better transit system is a key part of that and it can't be done without the states help.

IMO, I think the main reason the transportation bill failed was because of politics which is just utterly ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as the privatization option in one of the bill's revisions. Come on. This state is just embarrassing sometimes.

[Devout Urbanist]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

Anyone who sits up and tries to deny that Rural PA holds the majority of the Political weight in Harrisburg is obviously someone who just doesn't pay attention.

Who cares who got any of that crap first. Building large, pointless public projects is a common occurrence in cities losing population -- just look at Detroit's people mover. I'm supposed to believe my bus route is getting cut because of somebody in the middle of the state and not because the city has lost half its population? Uh huh. Sure.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

Ok - How bout the Stadiums, Convention Center and Casino....All Pittsburgh got funded from the State before Philadelphia.

Again your "Everything leads back to population" is a flawed argument in terms of Pennsylvania because it simply doesn't operate that way. Side note both Philly and Pittsburgh got the majority of their state funded boondoggles while both Cities were losing population not gaining.

Anyone who sits up and tries to deny that Rural PA holds the majority of the Political weight in Harrisburg is obviously someone who just doesn't pay attention.

I think the stadiumsin pittsburgh were built because Philly wanted a stadium and, well, they couldn't just build one in Philly, everyone in the state needed one (new stadiums were built all over, lancaster, york, altoona, etc as a result of the same law that gave funding to philly and pittsburgh). Philly just argued endlessly about where to put it before giving up and puttingthem where they were since it was the avenue of least resistance. in the meantime, pittsburgh built the stadiums so they opened first. actually, philly got its largest boondoggle (convention center) when it had ceased shrinking (not that it matters). I certainly would have preferred the convention center money be poured into transit.

transportation sunk for two reasons, rural republicans who have little transit service won't vote for anything with it and democrats from the cities won't vote for anythign republican even when itbenefits their citizens...which is not very different than liquor privatization which failed because urban democrats wouldn't support it (also because of corrupt senators)

[airwave09]

Originally Posted by HeavenWood

Located in one of the country's wealthiest metros, and yet, beyond a few crackpots, no calls for revolution in sight.

You are completely joking, right? Even to those still addicted to the morphine drip of mainstream media propagandized "news", it has become painfully obvious that the DC political scene has become a disgusting sarlac pit of corruption, hypocrisy, greed, and do-nothing uselessness.

Both political parties are essentially co-conspirators contributing to the disaster and are hated across the board by every man, woman, and child in America. There is arguably not a more corrupt bunch of thieves in such a small concentrated area in the world, except perhaps in Lower Manhattan.

[pman]

Originally Posted by airwave09

You are completely joking, right? Even to those still addicted to the morphine drip of mainstream media propagandized "news", it has become painfully obvious that the DC political scene has become a disgusting sarlac pit of corruption, hypocrisy, greed, and do-nothing uselessness.

Both political parties are essentially co-conspirators contributing to the disaster and are hated across the board by every man, woman, and child in America. There is arguably not a more corrupt bunch of thieves in such a small concentrated area in the world, except perhaps in Lower Manhattan.

This everlasting compelling of honesty, morality, justice and the law to bend the knee to policy, is the rottenest thing in a republican form of government. It is cowardly, degraded and mischievous; and in its own good time it will bring destruction upon this broad-shouldered fabric of ours. I believe the Prince of Darkness could start a branch hell in the District of Columbia (if he has not already done it), and carry it on unimpeached by the Congress of the United States, even though the Constitution were bristling with articles forbidding hells in this country. And if there were moneyed offices in it, Congress would take stock in the concern, too, and in less than three weeks Fessenden and Washburne would fill it full of their poor relations. What a rotten, rotten, and unspeakable nasty concern this nest of departments is, with its brainless battalions of Congressional poor-relation-clerks and their book-keeping, pencil-sharpening strumpets.
- Letter to Virginia City Territorial Enterprise, April 7, 1868

the only thing that has changed is the amount of money they're using

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist

Who cares who got any of that crap first. Building large, pointless public projects is a common occurrence in cities losing population -- just look at Detroit's people mover. I'm supposed to believe my bus route is getting cut because of somebody in the middle of the state and not because the city has lost half its population? Uh huh. Sure.

You do, because it goes back to your argument that Pittsburgh doesn't carry the weight of Philly in state politics, and I just showed you 4 examples that refutes your claims. Pittsburgh / Philadelphia have no more/less weight than each other in Harrisburg.

Hell even Philadelphia/Pittsburgh together is not enough overcome the Rural Political weight in Harrisburg.... Again the failure to pass the Transportation bill illustrates this nicely.