Theories behind the spectator sports obsession? (Pittsburgh, Penn: cities, population, places)

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by sskink

And you actually accused me of not knowing the game of football. That's rich.

Sorry, Ben doesn't even sniff the playoffs with the 2006 Jets or 2008 Dolphins. Those teams were on the backside of mediocre. Seems to me you discount the value of leadership and preparation in favor of drawing plays in the sand and ad libbing.

It's not an accusation, its just obvious.

Are those the last 2 years you watched the game?

How many Super Bowl appearances/wins do the Jets/Dolphins/Chad Pennington have in the last 20 years?

[sskink]

Originally Posted by JimboPGH

It comes down to spending wisely or spending poorly.

Your fundamental misconception, outside of being unable to grasp the simple fact that Nutting wasn't the majority owner until after the 2007 season, is that the Pirates failed for years because they didn't spend any money: in reality, the Pirates spent plenty of money... they just spent it poorly. Overspending for the Pat Mears' and Jeremy Burnitz's and Pokey Reese's of the world, while neglecting scouting, and drafting, and development, was what ruined the Buccos for 20 years. The Bucs weren't bad because they were cheap, they were bad because they were dumb and mismanaged.

Tampa Bay has been the second best team in baseball over the past five seasons despite having an average payroll of under $60,000. They do it by staying ahead of the analytics curve, trading players at their peak value to constantly re-stock their farm system, and by finding undervalued free agents (see Loney, James) to fill in the holes.

The Bucs need to be like Tampa if they want to stay competitive in the long-term, instead of just having a "window" of success that ends when McCutchen and Cole become free agents after 2018. However, they will be able to spend more than Tampa due to better ownership and much better fan support. You are right that bringing Burnett back for one year at 12 million wouldn't break the bank. And they should spend what needs to be spent to get the best first basemen available (see Loney, James).

That being said, simply overspending for established veterans is not how good teams are built. The Bucs need to continue to be aggressive in the foreign free agent market, the amateur draft, and constantly look to exploit market inefficiencies if they want to sustain success over the long haul.

Actually, forget Tampa: if the Pirates want continued success, they need to operate like the Steelers did from roughly 1992 until the day they spent too much money to extend Roethlisberger and Polamalu.

IMO, the whole WWTBD should be replaced with WWStLD.

Down the stretch, the Cards had something like $40 million on the DL. The team they fielded from September through the WS had a payroll in the $70s. Yes, you can argue that the Cards' higher attendance and TV revenue that supported a $115 payroll made it possible for the Cards to sustain despite the injuries.

But that would be missing the point that the Cards system had pieces ready to fill in, not just for starting pitching but for Craig (Matt Adams). The Bucs didn't. Tampa usually doesn't.

Pittsburgh is not Tampa. People will actually come out to see a winner. They'll watch on TV.

With the increased attendance and new national TV revenue splits it should be very possible for Nutting to make a profit while having a payroll in the 90s.

The issue I have with most of the arguments based on "value of veterans" is that they're made in a vacuum. I see a ton of posts from sabremetrics fans suggesting to trade Liriano because he's at his highest value and "just find the next Liriano" - with the assumption Searage and Benedict can change anyone's delivery and make them a star again. The popular assumption is that magic will work with Josh Johnson. But it doesn't account for Benedict probably going to Philly to become their pitching coach. Nor does it account for JMac and Locke turning into second half duds or Jonathan Sanchez not doing a thing.

And it doesn't take into account that the object of the game is to win the championship - which isn't happening with a rotation that's missing Burnett and Liriano. Not to be the shrewdest wheeler/dealer. Yes, you want the pipeline to keep developing players you can use at the MLB level. Yes, you don't want to trade the farm for Stanton or Cliff Lee or any single player. But you do want to win. You think a GM would prefer "He was a great at valuing talent" over "Won the 2014 World Series" on his tombstone?

Burnett is a top eight pitcher based on xFIP. He'll give you 200+ innings and around 200 Ks. He pitches pretty well anyplace not named Busch. Hiroki Kuroda is making $15M at 38 years old with a 3.8 WAR in 2013. AJ's WAR was 4.0 in 2013. He was probably worth the QO - maybe more. But I don't have an issue with Neal trying to get him down to $12M in order to buy other (expensive) parts. I get the feeling AJ wouldn't mind that either - if there are acquisitions made. I think AJ would rather give up a couple mill and get to the WS again than make $14M and ride off without another ring.

But once that offer dips into the $10M range... well, that starts getting a bit insulting, especially given AJ's status and role with the team. If he was looking for a long term deal, sure, you try to negotiate down. But it's for one year. And the Pirates really don't have a replacement for him yet. They will in 2015.

Just pay the man.

[erieguy]

Now you're making sense...and pay the man.

[sskink]

Originally Posted by erieguy

It's not an accusation, its just obvious.

Are those the last 2 years you watched the game?

How many Super Bowl appearances/wins do the Jets/Dolphins/Chad Pennington have in the last 20 years?

I stopped watching regularly a couple years ago.

None. And neither team had anywhere near the talent the Steelers did during their SB seasons. In both cases it was pretty much all Pennington. When the Jets let Pennington go, Parcells scooped him up immediately because he knew leadership was the quality the Dolphins needed more than a deep ball. Nobody but nobody had the Dolphins going anywhere in 2008. Yet there they were, in the playoffs.

Sorry that doesn't fit your narrative. But I expect Steelers fans to not know a thing about any other players outside the city limits, with the exception of a few Ravens guys.

Pennington will make an exceptional coach when he's ready to do so.

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by sskink

I stopped watching regularly a couple years ago.

None. And neither team had anywhere near the talent the Steelers did during their SB seasons. In both cases it was pretty much all Pennington. When the Jets let Pennington go, Parcells scooped him up immediately because he knew leadership was the quality the Dolphins needed more than a deep ball. Nobody but nobody had the Dolphins going anywhere in 2008. Yet there they were, in the playoffs.

Sorry that doesn't fit your narrative. But I expect Steelers fans to not know a thing about any other players outside the city limits, with the exception of a few Ravens guys.

Pennington will make an exceptional coach when he's ready to do so.

I already know you dont watch...and Pennington couldn't stay healthy enough to be of any impact anywhere. Nor did he have the arm to do so. Hes a smart guy. Had he stayed healthy maybe he'd have had a better career, however, the game is about winning, not making excuses.

Wrong again. With NFL Sunday Ticket and the invention of the DVR, I watch most every game. You should try it. Things have changed since "back in the day".

Pennington has been working with the Dolphins qb's. Hes a smart guy.

[Craziaskowboi]

Originally Posted by sskink

2) Ben is a physically gifted, talented QB. But not a leader of men.
3) If he were, there wouldn't have been an issue with pool and ping pong. Or all the complaints from his WRs and stupidity from some of the RBs.

Or maybe the RBs and WRs are just unwilling to be led.

You gotta remember; Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders appointed themselves as the "Young Money Crew" two years ago, which showed where there priorities were. Then Wallace rejected the contract extension the Steelers offered, held out of training camp, and had an across-the-board statistical decline. He refused to be led, and now he's in Miami with one lonely TD catch in eight games this season. And Sanders is in the process of playing himself out of a job as well. The only one of those "Young Money" WRs who's worth keeping is Brown, and he's the one who got the contract from the team. And whaddaya know; he's already outperforming Wallace. By the way, isn't it weird how Mike Wallace and Santonio Holmes suddenly became less productive the moment they left the Steelers? I think that shows who really stirs the drink in Pittsburgh.

As for the RBs, I like Le'Veon Bell; he's the best RB the team has had since Willie Parker. And Jonathan Dwyer is OK as a backup, though he's been lazy in the past, showing up to training camp overweight more than once. Getting rid of that faux intellectual Rashard Mendenhall was a big step in the right direction. He was easily my least-favorite Steeler of the last 10 years. Chris Kemoeatu was dumb as a box of rocks, but at least he tried. Mendenhall would just sit alone on the bench with his arms folded, staring off into outer space, presumably asking himself important questions like "Why is there air?" after fumbling the ball or trying to do some stupid spin move on third-and-short for a loss. There's a reason only one team even offered him a contract this past off-season, and only a one-year contract to boot. It's because he can't be led. Le'Veon Bell has one more rushing yard and just as many TD runs as Mendenhall this season, despite playing two fewer games.

This season I've seen Roethlisberger barking at his teammates more than I ever have before, and it makes me smile. He's always accepted the blame whenever he's played poorly; that's never been a problem. But I think now he's starting to get fed up with accepting the blame for everybody else, especially from a fan base that managed to alienate Terry Bradshaw for nearly 25 years after he retired. (Quite frankly, the way we treat our QBs is a ****ing embarrassment.) And he has every right to bark, considering the WRs have not only directly subtracted three TD passes from his stat line by dropping passes in the end zone that have hit them in the chest, but also added three INTs to his stat line by running the wrong routes, or lazy routes. Those miscues are the difference between a TD/INT ratio of 15/6, versus 12/9.

[sskink]

Originally Posted by erieguy

I already know you dont watch...and Pennington couldn't stay healthy enough to be of any impact anywhere. Nor did he have the arm to do so. Hes a smart guy. Had he stayed healthy maybe he'd have had a better career, however, the game is about winning, not making excuses.

Wrong again. With NFL Sunday Ticket and the invention of the DVR, I watch most every game. You should try it. Things have changed since "back in the day".

Pennington has been working with the Dolphins qb's. Hes a smart guy.

You do realize DVRs existed three years ago "back in the day", right?

Anyway, your overarching logic seems on track with the "Dilfer was a better QB than Marino because Dilfer has a ring" argument.

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by sskink

You do realize DVRs existed three years ago "back in the day", right?

Anyway, your overarching logic seems on track with the "Dilfer was a better QB than Marino because Dilfer has a ring" argument.

Yep. Had them when they first came out.

Nope, but by your rationalization, I believe you think Dilfer is better.

Pennington played 89 games total. He was barely a blip on the radar.

[Bludy-L]

Originally Posted by erieguy

And yes, that is being "cheap" when you don't sign a higher priced player that's worth paying.

That's your opinion only.

He chokes badly when he's needed to perform most. He also tries to show up his manager.

There's a reason Cole pitched in his place.

-- Posted with TapaTalk

[SammyKhalifa]

Originally Posted by sskink

Pittsburgh is not Tampa.

It ain't St. Louis either, baseball-speaking.