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Old 11-07-2013, 09:09 PM
 
416 posts, read 390,641 times
Reputation: 435

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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam View Post
Smoking makes it more likely you'll get cancer, it doesn't guarantee it.

Illegitimacy makes it more likely that you'll seek the gangster lifestyle, doesn't guarantee that either.
No, smoking causes cancer. Being born out of wedlock does not cause criminality. There is no scientific proof that these two things are "directly linked."

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam View Post
If you're styling Obama as the "leader of the free world"- I don't know if he would, you should also remember that he came from a wealthy family and went to very exclusive schools- hardly typical of most fatherless children.
So it's perfectly fine to grow up fatherless if you have money? Doesn't that mean the more important factor is wealth inequality not illegitimacy?
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:18 PM
 
416 posts, read 390,641 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Did you look at the link provided? Statistics are all anyone needs. It might not be politically correct in some ways, but they are statistics, so they are what they are.
Statistics are meaningless without context or an explanation. I'm still waiting for you to explain how "crime rates are directly linked to demographics."
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:00 PM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
14,808 posts, read 14,086,294 times
Reputation: 8510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist View Post
Statistics are meaningless without context or an explanation. I'm still waiting for you to explain how "crime rates are directly linked to demographics."
Statistics are never "meaningless". We can learn from them and address the problems from them. There is no such thing as "political correctness" if you are showing statistics, because the number speak for themselves.

Here are some other statistics to have a better understanding of the real issues.

In 2010 the approximate makeup of the US are as follows:

Americans 308,745,538 100.0 %
White 223,553,265 72.4 %
African American 38,929,319 12.6 %
Asian American 14,674,252 4.8 %
blah, blah, blah

Now take those census number and apply them to the WSJ statistics and you will see the amount of crime committed by a very small percentage of the population.

Murder in America - WSJ.com

There are STILL problems in our cities and they are indeed shown via statistics. How can we improve them? I have no idea. It think we have tried about everything. I think the best method used was in NYC by Bloomberg. He really made a huge difference. It will be reversed by the next mayor and you are going to see NYC's crime rise. It is what it is.
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:45 PM
 
28 posts, read 32,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Statistics are never "meaningless". We can learn from them and address the problems from them. There is no such thing as "political correctness" if you are showing statistics, because the number speak for themselves.

Here are some other statistics to have a better understanding of the real issues.
The numbers don't speak for themselves. They need a racist bigot to do the speaking for them.
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Old 11-09-2013, 12:57 AM
 
416 posts, read 390,641 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Now take those census number and apply them to the WSJ statistics and you will see the amount of crime committed by a very small percentage of the population.
What do you mean by "a very small percentage of the population"? Why do you think it is important or necessary to measure crime rates for the groups you listed? What purpose does this serve?
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:00 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
14,808 posts, read 14,086,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist View Post
What purpose does this serve?
Purpose? Doesn't the purpose seem quite obvious? To fix problems one must first know the problems. The situation feeds on itself and continues until measures are taken. Bloomberg took some drastic measures and guess what? It worked. It will be interesting watching crime start rising when they get rid of the "stop, question and frisk". More importantly, in NYC they assigned officers to small regions and those officers learned the area through contact with the residents. They were responsible for their area. It is called "accountability". It is amazing how fast you can fix problems when you start knowing all the people in those regions and you are there waiting for the known troublemakers to walk out their doors. When that stops, you will see crime rise again, IMHO.

So, why is it that everyone claims "racist", when statistics are shown? Should we claim geography? Maybe there is something in the water in some neighborhoods that cause this violence? Is that more plausible? Here is the problem geographically.

Homewood (South, North, West): 40
Hill District (Terrace Village, Bedford Dwellings, Middle Hill, Lower Hill): 37
Northside Hoods (NVH Projects, Allegheny Dwellings Projects, Three Rivers Manor, Allegheny Commons, most of Perry Hilltop, California-Kirkbride, most of Marshall-Shadeland, Upper Manchester, Hoodtown/Brighton Road): 35
Central McKeesport: 32
Central Wilkinsburg (excludes west of busway, Hamnett Place, Beacon Hills/Upper Penn, Laketon/McNary & its portion of Blackridge): 28
Duquesne: 17

Do you think these regions need some more attention to lower crime? Would you rather we disregard the areas because of their racial makeup because someone would claim it is racist to focus on areas with that many murders and we would be better off having equal police force power in the little downtown of Point Breeze instead? The problem is huge, but because of people claiming racism all the time, it will continually get a lack of help it obviously needs. Oh my, we can't discuss this because there happens to be a larger black population in the problem areas. We better not mention it. How many more black teens need to die? They haven't even started life yet for goodness sake and you are claiming racism? Really? WOW!

I just wanted to add, once names are called on a thread there really isn't any point. If people are blinded by race, there will never be solutions to these obvious problems in and around not only our city, but many cities.

Last edited by gg; 11-09-2013 at 07:22 AM..
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Old 11-09-2013, 09:47 AM
 
416 posts, read 390,641 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Purpose? Doesn't the purpose seem quite obvious? To fix problems one must first know the problems.
What "problems" do the statistics reveal? You are being extremely vague.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
The situation feeds on itself and continues until measures are taken. Bloomberg took some drastic measures and guess what? It worked. It will be interesting watching crime start rising when they get rid of the "stop, question and frisk".
So your argument is that because statistics supposedly show that a disproportionate number of people who commit crimes happen to belong to a certain race and gender, the police should "stop, question, and frisk" virtually everyone who belongs to that race and gender? Please provide evidence that this has "worked."

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
It is amazing how fast you can fix problems when you start knowing all the people in those regions and you are there waiting for the known troublemakers to walk out their doors.
What percentage of the people "stopped, questioned, and frisked" are "known troublemakers"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
So, why is it that everyone claims "racist", when statistics are shown?
Perhaps because you are suggesting that crime should be analyzed primarily through the lens of race and that an entire race of people should be viewed as criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Should we claim geography? Maybe there is something in the water in some neighborhoods that cause this violence? Is that more plausible?
As opposed to something in the race of the people who inhabit those neighborhoods? Certainly sounds more plausible to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Here is the problem geographically.

Homewood (South, North, West): 40
Hill District (Terrace Village, Bedford Dwellings, Middle Hill, Lower Hill): 37
Northside Hoods (NVH Projects, Allegheny Dwellings Projects, Three Rivers Manor, Allegheny Commons, most of Perry Hilltop, California-Kirkbride, most of Marshall-Shadeland, Upper Manchester, Hoodtown/Brighton Road): 35
Central McKeesport: 32
Central Wilkinsburg (excludes west of busway, Hamnett Place, Beacon Hills/Upper Penn, Laketon/McNary & its portion of Blackridge): 28
Duquesne: 17

Do you think these regions need some more attention to lower crime?
First of all, if you look at the histories of each of these places you will find that they are products of legalized racial and economic discrimination. Secondly, plenty of the people in these neighborhoods are not criminals. The same goes for plenty of the people who belong to the same racial group and live in other neighborhoods (Stanton Heights and Highland Park, for example). Lastly, plenty of neighborhoods throughout the country have the same racial make-up and much less crime than these areas, from Cascade Heights in Atlanta to Ladera Heights in Los Angeles. Hence your argument that we should focus primarily on race when it comes to understanding or fighting crime -- as opposed to economics, institutional discrimination, and neighborhood history -- does not hold up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Would you rather we disregard the areas because of their racial makeup because someone would claim it is racist to focus on areas with that many murders and we would be better off having equal police force power in the little downtown of Point Breeze instead?
No. I think it is good to have police in high crime areas. Unlike you, however, I think it is unconstitutional, immoral, and unproductive to stop, question, and frisk people based solely or even largely on their race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
They haven't even started life yet for goodness sake and you are claiming racism? Really? WOW!
I didn't say anything about racism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
If people are blinded by race, there will never be solutions to these obvious problems in and around not only our city, but many cities.
You are the one who thinks race is the most important factor we should look at when it comes to crime. That means you are the only person here who is "blinded by race."
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Old 11-09-2013, 11:40 AM
 
1,817 posts, read 2,921,761 times
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Quote:
First of all, if you look at the histories of each of these places you will find that they are products of legalized racial and economic discrimination. Secondly, plenty of the people in these neighborhoods are not criminals. The same goes for plenty of the people who belong to the same racial group and live in other neighborhoods (Stanton Heights and Highland Park, for example). Lastly, plenty of neighborhoods throughout the country have the same racial make-up and much less crime than these areas, from Cascade Heights in Atlanta to Ladera Heights in Los Angeles.
Good point. Highland Park, Point Breeze North, southern Staton Heights, Sugar Top, Lower Manchester, Blackridge, Chartiers City, etc are no worse than Squirrel Hill, Shadyside, Allegheny West, Crafton, etc.
I'd like to clarify: there are safe black neighborhoods in the county & most young African American males are not gang members, drug dealers or stick up kids. The leading demographic of homicide victems are black males (followed by white males, then black females). However, most of those victems are in their late 20's who have criminal records & gang tattoos/known gang or drug crew affiliation with established reputations and actions that lead to the cause of their deaths. Most young people in places such as Homewood may know one or more people who have been killed due to the homicide numbers being extremely disproportionately high since 1993 (I'm guessing over 200 homicides in Zone 5 since 1993), while at the same time having no involvement in drug activity or shootings/homicides. This demographic of 16-26year olds are the same people who make up a good percentage of lower wage jobs and or go to community college/job corps.
This description does not include the high achievers in both these environments & the more well to do ones which don't have high homicides.

Quote:
I didn't say anything about racism.
Although it may seem to others that you are implying it.

Last edited by Uptown kid; 11-09-2013 at 12:26 PM..
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:01 PM
 
5,515 posts, read 4,553,064 times
Reputation: 3572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist View Post
that mean the more important factor is wealth inequality not illegitimacy?
Is being poor is an excuse for being a violent criminal?
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Awkward Manor
2,576 posts, read 2,053,492 times
Reputation: 1669
Quote:
Originally Posted by UKyank View Post
Is being poor is an excuse for being a violent criminal?
Oh, a good place to post this:
Being Poor | Whatever

I just read it this morning.
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