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Old 01-22-2014, 12:01 PM
 
1,781 posts, read 2,072,733 times
Reputation: 1361

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderlust76 View Post
The southern beltway is where it's at and is the road that makes sense. I've been following it's development for some time due to knowing a lot of people that work at the airport plus it's definitely a road I will use. It's going to connect the airport and booming airport area to large business hubs like Southpointe and growing areas in Washington County. It will help make traffic on 376W not quite as big of a nightmare. It's a road that will influence business decisions and living decisions both there is no doubt about it.
Makes sense for who exactly? You and about 22 other people? Show us some data! That's the problem with zombie highway projects like this, they limp along with the support of 20 year old outdated traffic studies, as well as politicians whose careers and campaign donors' profits probably depend on this eventually being built. The problem is the Pittsburgh of today is night and day different from the Pittsburgh of 20+ years ago. The number of people using personal cars for transportation has been leveling out for years and will probably begin decreasing in the near future. The traffic volumes that would make this highway viable simply don't exist and according to data from current studies, probably never will.

It is very possible that this beltway plan will never be completely finished to Monroeville (it's only chance to ever become remotely viable), which means at some point the public would be saddled with an albatross so massive that it would make the squabbling over the $500mil+ NSC look like a couple bums arguing over dropped change in a storm drain.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:19 PM
 
1,781 posts, read 2,072,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderlust76 View Post
Everyone? There's like 4 people and a guy that looks like a skinny Carrot Top that doesn't lift weights. Those people have no idea what they're talking about and must never drive on 376W or have seen the development in the areas that it's going to connect to.
Now that's funny, you must be a traffic engineer or something since you claim to know more than them.

Oh wait you're not? Well then at the very least you can link to just one study somewhere that proves that this highway is very much needed and justifies the 3.8+ billion of our tax money that is going to be sunk into it, never to be seen again.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:20 PM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
14,169 posts, read 22,577,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airwave09 View Post
It is very possible that this beltway plan will never be completely finished to Monroeville (it's only chance to ever become remotely viable)...
Once the segment from U.S. 22 to I-79 is finished, only two segments would then need to be built: from I-79 to the Mon-Fayette Expressway, and from PA 51 to Monroeville. And now that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission will soon be able to keep all the toll money it collects instead of having to give a bunch to PennDOT, don't be surprised if those two segments get built sooner than we think. It's no coincidence that the transportation funding bill passed in November, and the Turnpike Commission announced just last week that contracts were awarded for the completion of the segment from U.S. 22 to I-79.

By the way, if you're worried about suburban sprawl, don't. Toll highways don't encourage it as much as "free" highways do because access to toll highways is even more limited. Compare the Pennsylvania Turnpike and I-79. On I-79, you get nearly continuous suburban development for 40 miles from Washington to Cranberry, because you have exits every two to three miles. Drive the Turnpike between Cranberry and New Stanton and you wouldn't even know that you're in a major metropolitan area, let alone 10 to 15 miles outside of downtown Pittsburgh, because you have an exit every eight to 10 miles.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:37 PM
 
5,722 posts, read 5,769,996 times
Reputation: 4381
Quote:
Originally Posted by airwave09 View Post
Makes sense for who exactly? You and about 22 other people? Show us some data! That's the problem with zombie highway projects like this, they limp along with the support of 20 year old outdated traffic studies, as well as politicians whose careers and campaign donors' profits probably depend on this eventually being built. The problem is the Pittsburgh of today is night and day different from the Pittsburgh of 20+ years ago. The number of people using personal cars for transportation has been leveling out for years and will probably begin decreasing in the near future. The traffic volumes that would make this highway viable simply don't exist and according to data from current studies, probably never will.

It is very possible that this beltway plan will never be completely finished to Monroeville (it's only chance to ever become remotely viable), which means at some point the public would be saddled with an albatross so massive that it would make the squabbling over the $500mil+ NSC look like a couple bums arguing over dropped change in a storm drain.

22 people yeah right. Ok let's make a wager now and we'll meet back on here in 5 years The naysayers are going by the data in regards to the current extension coming off of route 22. We already know not that many people use that extension. The new extension will connect it to route 79 which makes it an entirely different beast. The new extension will be used by people coming from I70 as far away as Columbus not to mention people from the Morgantown area. Also you can't deny the business angle and access to the airport. Companies like Siemens, Consol and Mylan built in Washington County that's just a fact and the acreage is there with more development happening all the time.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:40 PM
 
43 posts, read 46,488 times
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We have driven the Turnpike between Cranberry, Gibsonia and Harmarville. Harmarville is at a tremendous advantage because of the interchanges with Route 28 and the Turnpike. Cranberry intersects with 79 and the Turnpike as well. Driving through those areas can be a nightmare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
Once the segment from U.S. 22 to I-79 is finished, only two segments would then need to be built: from I-79 to the Mon-Fayette Expressway, and from PA 51 to Monroeville. And now that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission will soon be able to keep all the toll money it collects instead of having to give a bunch to PennDOT, don't be surprised if those two segments get built sooner than we think. It's no coincidence that the transportation funding bill passed in November, and the Turnpike Commission announced just last week that contracts were awarded for the completion of the segment from U.S. 22 to I-79.

By the way, if you're worried about suburban sprawl, don't. Toll highways don't encourage it as much as "free" highways do because access to toll highways is even more limited. Compare the Pennsylvania Turnpike and I-79. On I-79, you get nearly continuous suburban development for 40 miles from Washington to Cranberry, because you have exits every two to three miles. Drive the Turnpike between Cranberry and New Stanton and you wouldn't even know that you're in a major metropolitan area, let alone 10 to 15 miles outside of downtown Pittsburgh, because you have an exit every eight to 10 miles.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:09 PM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
14,169 posts, read 22,577,873 times
Reputation: 17323
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtw0592 View Post
We have driven the Turnpike between Cranberry, Gibsonia and Harmarville. Harmarville is at a tremendous advantage because of the interchanges with Route 28 and the Turnpike. Cranberry intersects with 79 and the Turnpike as well. Driving through those areas can be a nightmare.
And both Harmar and Cranberry are at the junction of the Turnpike and "free" highways. Development was bound to happen in those areas, because they're highway junctions on the edges of a major city. Notice how bucolic it is between Harmar and Cranberry, though? If you'd never been to Pennsylvania before, you'd never know you were near a major city without looking at a map. Toll highways don't completely eliminate suburban sprawl, but they sure do reduce it compared to "free" highways. There's little to no incentive to sprawl if a highway only has exits every five to 10 miles, versus every one to three miles.
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:41 PM
 
1,781 posts, read 2,072,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
Once the segment from U.S. 22 to I-79 is finished, only two segments would then need to be built: from I-79 to the Mon-Fayette Expressway, and from PA 51 to Monroeville. And now that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission will soon be able to keep all the toll money it collects instead of having to give a bunch to PennDOT, don't be surprised if those two segments get built sooner than we think.
You act like it is so simple, yet you could do so many more worthwhile transportation projects in the Pittsburgh area for the cost of each section of this monstrosity.

Here's a better idea: I'm pretty sure that the 22 to 79 section money could instead be used to modernize the parkway west to six+ lanes and better ramps. Ditto the 79 to 43 section to upgrade the parkway east. Then we might as well throw the money for the last section 43 to Monroeville into the pot for the east end T extension and see how many miles of track that gets you.

Now which of these projects do you think will better benefit the metro area (let alone city) 15+ years down the line, the Turnpike Commission's southern beltway project, or a modern/widened parkway combined with T extension to east end?

From my point of view, I just don't see how this is even a fair comparison.
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Old 01-22-2014, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Kittanning
4,692 posts, read 8,982,428 times
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They're "9 Billion" in debt and talking about building more? I don't know about you, but when I'm in debt, I sit home and save my money.
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Old 01-22-2014, 03:23 PM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
14,169 posts, read 22,577,873 times
Reputation: 17323
Quote:
Originally Posted by airwave09 View Post
You act like it is so simple, yet you could do so many more worthwhile transportation projects in the Pittsburgh area for the cost of each section of this monstrosity.

Here's a better idea: I'm pretty sure that the 22 to 79 section money could instead be used to modernize the parkway west to six+ lanes and better ramps. Ditto the 79 to 43 section to upgrade the parkway east. Then we might as well throw the money for the last section 43 to Monroeville into the pot for the east end T extension and see how many miles of track that gets you.

Now which of these projects do you think will better benefit the metro area (let alone city) 15+ years down the line, the Turnpike Commission's southern beltway project, or a modern/widened parkway combined with T extension to east end?

From my point of view, I just don't see how this is even a fair comparison.
I agree that those projects would be more beneficial, but the Parkways East and West are the domain of PennDOT, and the T is the domain of the Allegheny County Port Authority, so the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission would have nothing to do with any of those projects. And while the Mon-Fayette Expressway and South Beltway wouldn't benefit the city of Pittsburgh very much, they would benefit the Monongahela River Valley by better connecting it with the rest of the metropolitan area, and they'd also benefit the southern suburbs by providing east/west mobility that otherwise doesn't exist. Part of the reason why the Mon Valley continues to rot is because it remains very isolated, with PA 51 being the only arterial road with more than two lanes serving it. The Turnpike Commission plans to add more options.

Two things that are worth noting: PennDOT does want to upgrade the Parkway West in the not-too-distant future. I don't know if the construction they have planned for it this year is the first step of that process, or if it's just resurfacing for the next few years, but PennDOT does have major plans. Also, the Mon-Fayette Expressway segment from PA 51 to Monroveille would mostly follow a series of ravines that are sparsely developed in the first place. Relatively few homes or businesses would be acquired for a highway project in a suburban area. As for the Port Authority, Don't be surprised if they have some bigger plans now that Pennsylvania has passed a comprehensive transportation funding bill.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PreservationPioneer View Post
They're "9 Billion" in debt and talking about building more? I don't know about you, but when I'm in debt, I sit home and save my money.
The only reason they're so deep in debt is because Act 44 required them to subsidize PennDOT after Ed Rendell's plan to toll I-80 failed. As a result, Turnpike drivers not only pay for the Turnpike, but also for other "free" highway projects around Pennsylvania. The good news is, the new transportation funding bill phases out the subsidy to PennDOT, so the Turnpike Commission gets to keep all its money for a change. It's no coincidence that the Turnpike Commission awarded contracts for the next segment of the South Beltway less than two months after the transportation bill passed.
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Old 01-22-2014, 04:02 PM
 
43 posts, read 46,488 times
Reputation: 25
How many interchanges will this new beltway have? Only about four or five?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
And both Harmar and Cranberry are at the junction of the Turnpike and "free" highways. Development was bound to happen in those areas, because they're highway junctions on the edges of a major city. Notice how bucolic it is between Harmar and Cranberry, though? If you'd never been to Pennsylvania before, you'd never know you were near a major city without looking at a map. Toll highways don't completely eliminate suburban sprawl, but they sure do reduce it compared to "free" highways. There's little to no incentive to sprawl if a highway only has exits every five to 10 miles, versus every one to three miles.
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