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Most of the towns mentioned (Phoenixville, Ambler, West Chester, Lansdale...) are a good distance from center city Philadelphpia (anywhere from 20-35 miles). With that distance, you open up a larger area to make the comparison to Pittsburgh. Towns like Greensburg and Latrobe, for example, are definitely comparable to those you mentioned from near Philadelphia. Greensburg to some extent already has begun gentrification, not that it was ever a bad place to live. The difference, however, if the dearth of public transportation options that exist between Greensburg and Latrobe and the city of Pittsburgh. SEPTA has PAT beat any day, and unfortunately, I can't see some of the far-flung boroughs really enjoying a revival without the option as serving as bedroom communities for Pittsburgh. While Amtrak does offer once-daily service to Westmoreland and even Cambria county (at inconvenient times), I really doubt that the busy freight line would allow for more frequent commuter service.
Greensburg is a nice little city, but if the surrounding townships continue to sprawl, accessing Pittsburgh will become nearly impossible. Route 22 is no longer a viable route from Greensburg in my opinion during traffic, and taking 30 to the turnpike becomes more congested everyday. They continue to build-up ryan home developments along route 30 without any plans to widen route 30 or work on the poor placement of lights and turns. Also, they keep adding new businesses for people to stop and turn in to. I remember a time when a trip from my house to Pittsburgh could be done in 45 minutes. Now, not even close. I even believe they'll soon be adding another strip mall after the home depot/ dick's sporting goods one, as someone bought all of the houses on the next plot of land and tore them down. I'm sure that will include another light if that happens. When Westmoreland County's land bank is open, they plan on obtaining the Jeanette hospital, tearing it down, and trying to lure more retail. The Jeanette part of route 30 is already terrible due to the lights being set up so poorly.
Additionally, meaningful employment opportunities in Greensburg are pretty limited. Relatively few STEM and Financial jobs and creating a Medical district around the hospital affiliated with LECOM at Seton Hill may be a slow, poorly done manuever with Excela Health involved.
One not mentioned in the thread is Coreopolis. I don't know the area well, but compared to many other river boroughs it's held up rather well, and there are clusters of grand houses in places. With the increased development out by the airport, I could see it improving in general desirability, becoming a place where people who need to live out that way for job reasons, but desire a historic house, locate themselves. Of course, the tiny, cash-strapped school district it shares with Neville Island could be a problem, but at some point I see it being amalgamated into one of the nearby suburban school districts anyway.
I almost think grand homes are a detriment to a gentrifying area because they cost too much to rehab. Look at the South Side and Lawrenceville both have smaller homes. It is only when the neighborhood has gentrified that grand homes are needed by families. Look at Aspinwall and Friendship.
One not mentioned in the thread is Coreopolis. I don't know the area well, but compared to many other river boroughs it's held up rather well, and there are clusters of grand houses in places.
Gotta disagree here. Corry's business district is nearly non-existent (there are some super shady tattoo parlors though), the streets are a mess (is there crazy mine subsidence going on there or something?), big houses are being split up to rent to college kids at Robert Morris, and locals there are far from wealthy. Everyone with money in that area is either in Sewickley or some housing development in Robinson.
Crafton is held back by the lack of a real business district IMHO. Not to say there won't be continued appreciation, but it won't ever be considered a walkable "town" because the town center really even lacks enough storefronts to revitalize. Carnegie actually has a lot more upside potential.
I don't really agree with this assessment. A neighborhood such as Ben Avon is highly desirable and has even less of a business district. Its closest business district is Bellevue, which is a pretty good comparable for Crafton/Carnegie. Crafton isn't as upscale as Ben Avon (neighboring Thornburg and Roslyn Farms fill those shoes) but is just as attractive to young, middle-class families such as ours.
And the definition of "walkability" is open to interpretation depending on the individual. In Crafton, I can walk to the coffee shop, barber, pizza place, mechanic, post office, ice cream place, restaurants, beer distributor, convenience store, and even the grocery store (a little longer walk). I can also walk my daughter to school or the playground on quiet streets that are safe 24 hours a day. I value the last point above all else.
Edit: If we are looking for most potential in a business district than yes, Carnegie has a ton more potential. But I believe Crafton will always be more desirable given the reasons I stated previously.
Last edited by SlurmsMcKenzie; 01-14-2014 at 10:10 AM..
Greensburg is a nice little city, but if the surrounding townships continue to sprawl, accessing Pittsburgh will become nearly impossible. Route 22 is no longer a viable route from Greensburg in my opinion during traffic, and taking 30 to the turnpike becomes more congested everyday. They continue to build-up ryan home developments along route 30 without any plans to widen route 30 or work on the poor placement of lights and turns. Also, they keep adding new businesses for people to stop and turn in to. I remember a time when a trip from my house to Pittsburgh could be done in 45 minutes. Now, not even close. I even believe they'll soon be adding another strip mall after the home depot/ dick's sporting goods one, as someone bought all of the houses on the next plot of land and tore them down. I'm sure that will include another light if that happens. When Westmoreland County's land bank is open, they plan on obtaining the Jeanette hospital, tearing it down, and trying to lure more retail. The Jeanette part of route 30 is already terrible due to the lights being set up so poorly.
Additionally, meaningful employment opportunities in Greensburg are pretty limited. Relatively few STEM and Financial jobs and creating a Medical district around the hospital affiliated with LECOM at Seton Hill may be a slow, poorly done manuever with Excela Health involved.
Greensburg has enormous potential and has a lot in common with west chester (though west chester has a much larger university in town but it's also a county seat). the main differences as I see it are that west chester is within driving distance of a train line, the larger university, and it's in chester county which has seen rapid job growth (at least by PA standards). OTOH, Greensburg is ON a train line, albeit without service. It currently takes about 40 minutes by Amtrak from Pittsburgh to Greensburg. Latrobe is another one, a great walkable town with interesting architecture, a mix of homes, good highway access that is just begging for train service. the problem with past proposals is they were commuter services with too many stops in places close to the city. the geography of the line is such that it is more competitive for places that are further out. Latrobe is 50 minutes by rail. what I would look at is a Keystone west type service. Johnstown, Latrobe, Greensburg, and maybe Jeannette but nothing til the city. I might add an east liberty stop back but initially I'd have it go straight downtown (requiring an easy transfer to the busway to get to east liberty). NS' right of way was once four tracks. While I think they would allow passenger service, I do think they would want to restore some capacity. perhaps the main problem is the bottleneck created by the busway which was partially carved out of the railroad right of way leaving only two tracks but if signaling improvements are made this might not kill the service (even if it would block increased frequency down the road).
sewickley..the train used to travel though town where ohio river blvd is today. this would have been a more convenient spot for pedestrians.
I think what we are really talking about when we say "classic town" is the railroad suburb which is the only place that I know that married the concept of the classic town with the suburb. even streetcar suburbs are a lot different, often they were built with the idea that you'd take the streetcar to the shopping district. the railroad town (and some classic towns like jenkintown near Philadelphia predate the railroad, it was on the main route to NYC from Philadelphia, originally constructed in the early 18th c) really married the concept that it would be a town. when there you would walk everywhere but use the railroad to get other places. not to get too far into it but the advantage of faster rail is that it can make places that were independent into suburbs.let's take my proposed johnstown-pittsburgh line. at current speeds it's 90 minutes from johnstown to pittsburgh. that's a time that maybe some supercommuters might take to have a mansion in johnstown but if you speed the trip up such that it's 50 minutes, then johnstown effectively becomes a suburb (not leastwise because it doesn't have a functional market of its own). people live in lancaster and ride the 70 minute train (90 minute drive) to Philly. in my proposal this would occur to latrobe and greensburg at current speeds..it would now be possible to have a job downtown and live in downtown greensburg or latrobe. in other words, it shifts the development impetus away from sprawl (near a highway exit) toward the city (near the station). the shorter the trip, the greater the gravitational pull of the station. get the line established and if companies are interested in turle creek, discuss a station then.
Greensburg has enormous potential and has a lot in common with west chester (though west chester has a much larger university in town but it's also a county seat). the main differences as I see it are that west chester is within driving distance of a train line, the larger university, and it's in chester county which has seen rapid job growth (at least by PA standards). OTOH, Greensburg is ON a train line, albeit without service. It currently takes about 40 minutes by Amtrak from Pittsburgh to Greensburg. Latrobe is another one, a great walkable town with interesting architecture, a mix of homes, good highway access that is just begging for train service. the problem with past proposals is they were commuter services with too many stops in places close to the city. the geography of the line is such that it is more competitive for places that are further out. Latrobe is 50 minutes by rail. what I would look at is a Keystone west type service. Johnstown, Latrobe, Greensburg, and maybe Jeannette but nothing til the city. I might add an east liberty stop back but initially I'd have it go straight downtown (requiring an easy transfer to the busway to get to east liberty). NS' right of way was once four tracks. While I think they would allow passenger service, I do think they would want to restore some capacity. perhaps the main problem is the bottleneck created by the busway which was partially carved out of the railroad right of way leaving only two tracks but if signaling improvements are made this might not kill the service (even if it would block increased frequency down the road).
sewickley..the train used to travel though town where ohio river blvd is today. this would have been a more convenient spot for pedestrians.
I think what we are really talking about when we say "classic town" is the railroad suburb which is the only place that I know that married the concept of the classic town with the suburb. even streetcar suburbs are a lot different, often they were built with the idea that you'd take the streetcar to the shopping district. the railroad town (and some classic towns like jenkintown near Philadelphia predate the railroad, it was on the main route to NYC from Philadelphia, originally constructed in the early 18th c) really married the concept that it would be a town. when there you would walk everywhere but use the railroad to get other places. not to get too far into it but the advantage of faster rail is that it can make places that were independent into suburbs.let's take my proposed johnstown-pittsburgh line. at current speeds it's 90 minutes from johnstown to pittsburgh. that's a time that maybe some supercommuters might take to have a mansion in johnstown but if you speed the trip up such that it's 50 minutes, then johnstown effectively becomes a suburb (not leastwise because it doesn't have a functional market of its own). people live in lancaster and ride the 70 minute train (90 minute drive) to Philly. in my proposal this would occur to latrobe and greensburg at current speeds..it would now be possible to have a job downtown and live in downtown greensburg or latrobe. in other words, it shifts the development impetus away from sprawl (near a highway exit) toward the city (near the station). the shorter the trip, the greater the gravitational pull of the station. get the line established and if companies are interested in turle creek, discuss a station then.
A relative used to commute from Ligonier to Pittsburgh via the train. This was years ago.
I don't think many of the towns in the Mon Valley are poised to become desirable, and that's why I like it down here. When an area becomes desirable, the rents and real estate prices climb to the moon, and all the douche bags move in, following the latest trend. No thanks.
That said, Monongahela City is quite nice, and Brownsville could be magnificent. I would like to see gentrification happen there, because it is intact and so well preserved. McKeesport will always be a post apocolyptic urban wonderland, whereas Braddock and Homestead have a better chance of becoming....ugh..."hip."
McKees Rocks - the business district was destroyed and replaced with a parking lot and shopping plaza. And the town leaders worship the plaza and let the sliver of business district fall down. Stowe has the only intact and functional business district, and the residential districts are also in better shape in Stowe, but it has the perception of being an unfabulous white ghetto, and the locals never have anything positive to say about it.
Last edited by PreservationPioneer; 01-14-2014 at 02:14 PM..
I broadly agree with you here. I'm always scratching my head that Dormont isn't more desirable than it is, considering it has some great housing stock, a good business district, and the best transit access of any suburb. The only things which hold it back are somewhat meh (not even bad) schools and high borough taxes.
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The taxes there are insane. Takes the crown for corruption & gross mismanagement.
The taxes there are insane. Takes the crown for corruption & gross mismanagement.
Dormont has some senile old bulls holding on to power. It won't last much longer. Too many young bulls ready to run them off.
Housing prices have risen slowly and steadily the past few years there it seems. I wouldn't say it's gentrifying by any means, but it's certainly renewing itself with a lot of young home buyers.
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