Century 3 Mall...$13 million dollar renovation (Pittsburgh, McKeesport: chapel, houses, construction)

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by _Buster

All trends are cyclical;

Yup. I'm old enough that I can remember a few cycles through the "downtowns are gone for good, nobody will ever go into a downtown to shop again" predictions, as well. Then, before you know it, downtowns and town centers are trendy again and indoor shopping is pronounced dead. It's human nature, I guess--people love to pronounce a death knoll even though all that's usually happening is a down cycle.

At the same time, I do think malls were overbuilt during the last "boom" cycle. So some of the ones that are failing will indeed die, since too many were built to begin with. Will that include Century III? Looks like the investor is betting it won't, but time will tell.

[TheYO]

Originally Posted by _Buster

All trends are cyclical; indoor shopping malls already took a huge nose dive during the past two decades. Who would've thought big box stores would have become popular again after Kmart, etc nearly died in the late 70s/early 80s? But the concept came back big time in the late 90s with Target, Best Buy, etc. Now those are trending downward again.

The retail industry is always looking to remake things in order to look shiny, new, and different to the next generation of shoppers.

I think the decline of malls is the result of a bigger trend, the decline of suburbs. Urban population growth is now outpacing suburban growth. I'm part of this new generation that loves city life and has no interest in living in some boring, cookie-cutter suburb. Malls are a staple of suburbia, and as more and more people flock to cities, malls will continue to decline.

That being said, I'd love to see a revival of the arcade. The Cleveland Arcade is such a beautiful building, it's a shame there aren't many shops left in it. Hyatt now operates a hotel in it, and hopefully all the people moving to downtown Cleveland can breathe new life into the landmark.

[slavicamerican]

This reminds me of an article I read a while back about the plethora of abandoned big box store buildings in the suburbs and efforts to find a way to reuse them. Whereas some big box stores close down, leaving the abandoned large building, others build larger big box buildings, also abandoning their former building. And there aren't many buyers for these large buildings. I've seen it in Weirton, WV, where Walmart abandoned its old building to move about .5 mile away into a new building. Now, what was forest, is now a Walmart and what was a Walmart, is now blight. Weirton has never cared much about what it looks like.

[doo dah]

This article came up in my RSS feed this morning:
Peak shopping and the decline of traditional retail | OUPblog

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by TheYO

I think the decline of malls is the result of a bigger trend, the decline of suburbs. Urban population growth is now outpacing suburban growth.

Is that what's happening in Pittsburgh? I've heard the growth rate for places like Cranberry is actually quite strong. According to this article, Cranberry Township has had a 59 percent increase in 10 years, adding 8,809 people to the community.

Some other growing communities noted in the article: Peters Township grew 21 percent, Murrysville grew 9.5 percent, Penn Township grew 22.8 percent, North Fayette grew 28 percent, South Fayette grew 19 percent, North Strabane grew 23 percent, and Cecil Township grew 9 percent. It also noted Pine Township saw the greatest increase in new residents with 3,635 people moving to this community in the past ten years (but did not note the percentage).

Former industrial towns like Braddock are suffering because they lost their main employers, and I suppose that they might be considered suburbs since they are near a major city--but that's a different situation than the traditional suburb.

Fastest Growing Pittsburgh Communities - Where People Are Moving in Pittsburgh

[trackstar13]

In regards to western PA, Canadian shoppers seem to be a big part of what is driving the brick and mortar stores. Since living in Erie I have had several conversations with Canadians who were stopping in Erie and planned on hitting Grove City, Cranberry, and even Ross Park Mall. I am pretty sure there is a significant amount of targeted advertising to get these Canadian shoppers to western PA and generate sales. It makes sense when you think about our proximity to Ontario, the lack of sales tax on clothes in PA, lower sales taxes on other merchandise (6% in most areas of the state) and the fact that shopping online will not work for Canadian shoppers looking to take advantage of these savings. I am not an avid shopper like my wife, but she has mentioned that the Millcreek Mall is lacking some of the stores that Ross Park has and the Grove City outlets have different items/stores and deals additionally. I was curious so I just checked out the sales tax rates for Ontario and it appears that they are 13%. Toronto to Pittsburgh is basically the same amount of time as driving from Pittsburgh to Philly and with other shopping like Erie, Grove City, and Cranberry in between, I would not be surprised if the market for Canadian shoppers continues to grow. I am not sure if these shoppers will go to Century III, but Ross Park is in a good position to benefit from these shoppers.

[Buckeye Burgher]

Originally Posted by Caladium

Is that what's happening in Pittsburgh? I've heard the growth rate for places like Cranberry is actually quite strong. According to this article, Cranberry Township has had a 59 percent increase in 10 years, adding 8,809 people to the community.

Some other growing communities noted in the article: Peters Township grew 21 percent, Murrysville grew 9.5 percent, Penn Township grew 22.8 percent, North Fayette grew 28 percent, South Fayette grew 19 percent, North Strabane grew 23 percent, and Cecil Township grew 9 percent.

With a couple of exceptions, those stats indicate people are jumping the county line in search of
lower property taxes.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Burgher

With a couple of exceptions, those stats indicate people are jumping the county line in search of
lower property taxes.

Agreed, that is indeed a big reason that many suburban areas around Pittsburgh are seeing growth, not decline.

[szug-bot]

canadians - yes, grove city even markets for Victoria Day. its kind of fascinating in a way, especially the stories at how ignorant and rude some of them are.

suburban growth - being outpaced by urban growth? i would hesitate on that. some cities have seen growth, but isnt that just transferring from one area to another? that is why despite Trimont Towers (the first), and all this housing downtown, the population has grown by a fly's hair - its not really luring from the suburbs. (this is pgh im talking about, not phily or DC, so lets not take a tangent with a counter argument).

cranberry - i didnt exactly run my own social science experiment, but i bet their is an inverse relationship with a resident's affinity for the area and how long theyve lived there...in other words, people who moved there in its boom days (late 80s, i guess) are less likely to say "well, i love it!". because since then, traffic and a relatively speaking crush of humanity followed and spoiled the fun.

i lived in fairfax county twice, in the early 90s and then in mid to late 2000s. the same places that were once clean, pretty, new, were now littered, crowded, run-down, with acres and acres of parked cars taking every precious inch of curb. im not scoffing at cranberry - but only saying i think i would be unhappy to move out somewhere only 10 years later to have an extra 5,000 neighbors.

[slavicamerican]

One very important distinction between downtowns and suburbia is that there is a lot less downtown to be had, which makes it more precious, assuming someone wants it in the first place. Urban cores are unique and increasingly desirable as they address many issues of concern in many places, like long commutes. You can build a lot more suburbia, but there is only one real downtown with historic buildings, which is what many of the affluent want.

Also, as the country becomes increasingly divided between the haves and have-nots, you're likely to see the haves clustering in nice places, as they always have. And as more of the poor and immigrants move to the burbs and into the houses made cheap by the real estate collapse, the wealthy are moving into the inner core, like within a castle behind a moat. In other words, it's like white (and wealthy this time) flight all over again but in reverse.