Former Montgomery Ward stores (Pittsburgh, California: purchases, bus, garage)

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by PreservationPioneer

Malls really killed downtowns across the nation, didn't they? Now so many of the historic buildings have been lost. Downtowns may come back, but you can't bring the history back.

A question to those of you who were around during the mall era: did people know that the existence of malls was the death knell for downtowns at the time? Did people care?

People like the idea of parking in a well-lit lot and having their car available to tote their purchases home. Going downtown, particularly in the evening, means parking in a dark garage or waiting on a street corner and taking a night bus- not a particularly inviting prospect especially for the ladies.

Downtown survived as long as it did because there were still a fair number of housewives who could do their shopping during the day in town and most working families just had one car so the malls were out of the question for most through the 70's.

There is a lot to be said for history, but the rise of malls was based on practical reasons.

[armourereric]

I've done alot of research on Allegheny Center, and 2 factoids the anti AC crowd never mentions is:

Total retail sales in the AC area dived 55% from 1954-1955, all due to the opening of North Hills Village.

Boggs and Buhl had become flooded with customer complaints over the lack of air conditioning in their AC department store. The cost estimate back then was 1.5 Million to put A/C in their AC building which was supposedly their biggest factor in deciding to close.

Was Allegheny Center ultimately a failure, yes, but it replaced a commercial district that has already completely failed anyway.

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by armourereric

I've done alot of research on Allegheny Center, and 2 factoids the anti AC crowd never mentions is:

Total retail sales in the AC area dived 55% from 1954-1955, all due to the opening of North Hills Village.

Boggs and Buhl had become flooded with customer complaints over the lack of air conditioning in their AC department store. The cost estimate back then was 1.5 Million to put A/C in their AC building which was supposedly their biggest factor in deciding to close.

Was Allegheny Center ultimately a failure, yes, but it replaced a commercial district that has already completely failed anyway.

The 1954-1955 date range must be an error. I think Allegheny Center opened much later than that, right?

Oh, and the original Allegheny City commercial district, don't get me started. Destroying that was a huge mistake, on par with the demolition of the lower Hill.

[FreightTrainRunning]

It's one of those chicken-or-the-egg things. People started moving out the 'burbs and shopping followed them and then more people followed the shopping. And it was a long drawn out process over a couple of generations. The first strip malls started popping up in the burbs over sixty years ago, Miracle Mile opened in Monroeville in '54 so it's not like malls opened and suddenly downtowns closed up.

There were other factors too. There was a lot of crime in cities in the sixties and seventies and huge financial crises; even New York almost went bankrupt in the seventies. Not Pittsburgh but quite a few major cities got hit by riots in the late sixties, for instance Newark and Detroit, and their downtowns never really recovered from those. I remember going into New York as a kid in the seventies and it was a mess. Garbage, graffiti, collapsing streets, stripped burnt cars sitting on concrete blocks in parking spaces.

I can't really blame folks for retreating to relatively safe shopping malls.

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

There is a lot to be said for history, but the rise of malls was based on practical reasons.

Seems debatable to me. Keep in mind, I am not just talking about downtown Pgh. There was a time when people lived within walking distance to downtown retail. That would seem convenient to me.

[armourereric]

Originally Posted by PreservationPioneer

The 1954-1955 date range must be an error. I think Allegheny Center opened much later than that, right?

Oh, and the original Allegheny City commercial district, don't get me started. Destroying that was a huge mistake, on par with the demolition of the lower Hill.

The 1954-55 data refers to an Allegheny City CoC report about the OLD pre Allegheny Center commercial district, after North Hills Village opened, the old commercial district stopped being economically viable. Yes, it would be nice if it was still around.

[jay5835]

Originally Posted by GeneW

I remember going into New York as a kid in the seventies and it was a mess. Garbage, graffiti, collapsing streets, stripped burnt cars sitting on concrete blocks in parking spaces.

New York was the best place in the world in the 1970s. You must have gone to the wrong part of town. It was the center of the universe, but you didn't have to be a millionaire to live there. In many ways, I'm sorry I ever left.

[gg]

Originally Posted by jay5835

New York was the best place in the world in the 1970s. You must have gone to the wrong part of town. It was the center of the universe, but you didn't have to be a millionaire to live there. In many ways, I'm sorry I ever left.

NYC is WAY better now than then. Goodness! Way better. Sure it is expensive, but it is so much nicer. Heck you can even transfer on a bus on 163rd these days. I love NYC now. Not back then.

[greg42]

Originally Posted by PreservationPioneer

Malls really killed downtowns across the nation, didn't they? Now so many of the historic buildings have been lost. Downtowns may come back, but you can't bring the history back.

A question to those of you who were around during the mall era: did people know that the existence of malls was the death knell for downtowns at the time? Did people care?

What would constitute being around during the mall era? I was born in 1971, which to me is well within the mall era, certainly not post-mall which we are still barely into. But, I didn't grow up within walking distance of any remaining downtown retail. I grew up in a late-60s era subdivision with private small roads (low traffic) and half acre lots.

The nearby town (a few miles) was too small to have anything but little local businesses. And they weren't enough. Most people even who lived in that town would have driven 10 miles to a larger town for all their shopping, including main grocery shopping. Now, the closet larger town like that, when I was growing up, still had some downtown businesses that we went to. It was not big enough to have an indoor mall (the closest one of those was more like 20 miles) but there was a pretty large outdoor plaza that had cinema, a smallish JC Penney and another dept store, and accompanying small businesses. When it did get an indoor mall, the outdoor one died of course as the indoor mall was on the opposite end of town. Downtown continued a slow decline of retail through all that time. I think it has swung back a little but I doubt any of the things are true remaining stores. I think many of the buildings survived though, don't recall lots of demolitions.

[PreservationPioneer]

Here's my blog post!

Discovering Historic Pittsburgh: Former Montgomery Ward Department Store - McKeesport