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Old 09-03-2014, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,361 posts, read 16,879,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moby Hick View Post
That's a good way of putting it. At least that's what I see. The upper East End has lots of middle class families with children, but the kids don't go to public schools. They go to Catholic schools mostly.
I think it's a mix. Among the set of younger parents I know, it seems to be almost an even split between who moves to the burbs (or Squirrel Hill), who goes the private school route, and who chooses a magnet (or the ECS charter). I don't know anyone who sends their kids to Catholic school, but it might be the set I run into. I'm sure I'll know more when I move to Morningside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theta_sigma View Post
Man, I wish there was some way to turn this around. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy after a while. I really don't want to be part of the problem.

I wonder if it will change at all in the next few years. Our neighbors are an old Pittsburgh working class Catholic family and of course they send their kid to Catholic school. They would have done so even if they didn't live where the neighborhood school is low-performing and mostly black. But the new families moving in are mostly transplants and non-Catholic. What are they going to do when their kids are school-aged? I would think the most likely options are move, or go magnet but at what point will that spill over into the neighborhood school?
I think Sunnyside K-8 has potential for a turnaround. Right now it's 73% black, and 17% white - pretty amazing considering the feeder pattern is Stanton Heights, Upper Lawrenceville and Morningside, all of which have black populations, but none of which are black majority.

If I were going to bet money on a turnaround of a school though, I'd say Woolslair. Right now it's a pretty crappy school in terms of test scores. It has higher white enrollment than most of the Upper East End (24%) but is very poor (with 90% of students qualifying for free/reduced lunch - second poorest in the district). And total enrollment has dropped so low (only 110 students) that the district wanted to close it last year, and only a public outcry saved the school.

The key to the comeback is the feeder pattern - the Strip District, Polish Hill, Lower Lawrenceville, Bloomfield, and Friendship. Enrollment is cratering now because all of these areas are gentrifying rapidly, which is pushing out low-income families. But with enrollment so low, all you'd need is a pact of one to two dozen families within the feeder zone to start changing the school demographics. At which point it would flip pretty quickly to an improving school.

Plenty of schools have made this change in Chicago over the last dozen years BTW. This has also happened in portions of San Francisco, Portland, and elsewhere. Get enough yuppie parents in a neighborhood school, and it will become desirable within a few years.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
6,782 posts, read 9,528,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
I don't even know why this turned into a city school debate. The greatest student losses are from schools in the suburbs. The failed Woodland Hills District when the horrible Judge destroyed it as a result of a Civil Rights Act Lawsuit to name district that is being hit hard with fleeing. Imagine how valuable the homes in Churchill and Edgewood would be if they still had their school districts in place.
It turns out that getting an education is actually a civil right while having public services structured in the way that is most protective of private property values isn't. I wonder how the state is getting away with not doing something about districts like Wilkinsburg or Duquesne.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
What can one do with the Wilkinsburg School District? Would the city of Pittsburgh allow them to merge into the city? Does the city want that? If I was in Wilkinsburg, I would be pushing to merge for every reason possible. Wilkinsburg can't grow due to the school tax millage rate. I looked at a home selling for around $90K that had a $10K tax bill attached to it. I would love to restore the home, but those taxes would add one heck of a stress level to it. Then to flip it, what would the new buyers do with that tax bill? I just don't even look at Wilkinsburg anymore for a possible investment. Just too crazy. There sure aren't any easy answers for some school districts.
I think Wilkinsburg going into the city's school district would be a win-win scenario in the longer run. The huge drop in property taxes would raise the real estate values within Wilkinsburg dramatically. I expect that the neighborhoods west of the Busway would be in part or wholly sent to Minadeo/Allderdice, which would provide much better local neighborhood school options, and probably make the Wilkinsburg part of Regent Square nearly as expensive as Squirrel Hill in time. It might even contribute to the restoration of Wilkinsburg's business district, as the lower taxes will help make redevelopment more feasible.

That said, my understanding is when it's been floated, the black majority in Wilkinsburg has generally been hostile to going into PPS and losing autonomy. And if it went up for a referendum, I think a lot of people in Pittsburgh would be opposed as well for parochial reasons.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:17 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
26,137 posts, read 25,783,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I think Sunnyside K-8 has potential for a turnaround. Right now it's 73% black, and 17% white - pretty amazing considering the feeder pattern is Stanton Heights, Upper Lawrenceville and Morningside, all of which have black populations, but none of which are black majority.
Most all the kids in Morningside go to St. Raphaels to avoid the city school district. Not sure about the others, but it is clear they figured out a way to avoid as well.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:24 AM
 
1,146 posts, read 1,405,092 times
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Just curious how a school district as small as Cornell is still around/came about? It looks like it and the area it serves was around before Moon Township/School District were formed? Seems like the merging with Moon School District should have been done a long time ago. It looks like its peak enrollment in the last 20 years was 795 in the 2001-2002 school year.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:25 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
26,137 posts, read 25,783,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I think Wilkinsburg going into the city's school district would be a win-win scenario in the longer run. The huge drop in property taxes would raise the real estate values within Wilkinsburg dramatically. I expect that the neighborhoods west of the Busway would be in part or wholly sent to Minadeo/Allderdice, which would provide much better local neighborhood school options, and probably make the Wilkinsburg part of Regent Square nearly as expensive as Squirrel Hill in time. It might even contribute to the restoration of Wilkinsburg's business district, as the lower taxes will help make redevelopment more feasible.

That said, my understanding is when it's been floated, the black majority in Wilkinsburg has generally been hostile to going into PPS and losing autonomy. And if it went up for a referendum, I think a lot of people in Pittsburgh would be opposed as well for parochial reasons.
I see a lot of positives if they merge, but not for Minadeo/Allderdice. I think you would see some flight if Wilkinsburg could merge. It is just what happens if you look at the districts that have had to merge with tough districts.

Anyway, school population is pretty much down across the board, so it isn't just a city dilemma. There will be mergers down the road, but I think they need to be more carefully thought out, so there aren't failures like Woodland Hills.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:28 AM
 
Location: O'Hara Twp.
4,359 posts, read 7,483,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Most all the kids in Morningside go to St. Raphaels to avoid the city school district. Not sure about the others, but it is clear they figured out a way to avoid as well.
Friends moved from Morningside last summer and that said that wasn't the case. They said the kids went to lots of different schools and by no means did the majority go to St. Raphael's.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
7,541 posts, read 10,203,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmantz65 View Post
Just curious how a school district as small as Cornell is still around/came about? It looks like it and the area it serves was around before Moon Township/School District were formed? Seems like the merging with Moon School District should have been done a long time ago. It looks like its peak enrollment in the last 20 years was 795 in the 2001-2002 school year.

Any time there is a merger of school districts, it usually causes quite a stir- they are usually pretty slow about it.


Both Cornell and Moon Area are the results of mergers back in the day. Cornell is a merger between the school districts of Coraopolis and Neville Township, which closed its school back in 1971,
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,361 posts, read 16,879,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
I see a lot of positives if they merge, but not for Minadeo/Allderdice. I think you would see some flight if Wilkinsburg could merge. It is just what happens if you look at the districts that have had to merge with tough districts.
Wilkinsburg west of the Busway is still majority white - indeed, the areas south of Kelley Avenue are overwhelmingly white. The area would fit well into PPS existing Lower East End feeder. The area north of Kelley is mostly black, but not overwhelmingly so like almost everywhere else in Wilkinsburg (except Blackridge) these days)

As to the rump of Wilkinsburg, I'm not sure what would be done with it, but even sending the kids to Westinghouse would be a step forward from the status quo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis View Post
Anyway, school population is pretty much down across the board, so it isn't just a city dilemma. There will be mergers down the road, but I think they need to be more carefully thought out, so there aren't failures like Woodland Hills.
Broadly agreed. Note that enrollment was down in all of the "top" districts in the county. Down in Mount Lebanon, down in Upper Saint Clair, and down significantly in Fox Chapel. That said, wealthy districts often have a slow decline in enrollment as well, as at a given income bracket families generally need more bedrooms/bathrooms than single people or childless couples. Thus if somewhere is really expensive, no matter how top-notch the schools are, you're going to see a lot of families slowly priced out of moving there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam View Post
Both Cornell and Moon Area are the results of mergers back in the day. Cornell is a merger between the school districts of Coraopolis and Neville Township, which closed its school back in 1971,
It's amazing to think Neville Island had its own district at one point. I mean, Coraopolis is a fairly big dense borough, and you can see how it had a high school-age population in the past. But the residential sections of Neville don't look like they were any bigger in the past then they are today.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
7,541 posts, read 10,203,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post



It's amazing to think Neville Island had its own district at one point. I mean, Coraopolis is a fairly big dense borough, and you can see how it had a high school-age population in the past. But the residential sections of Neville don't look like they were any bigger in the past then they are today.


I'm not that familiar with the particular history of Neville Island to answer that.


But all of the students at the Neville School might not have necessarily been from Neville Island.


My mother grew up in Indiana Township, and Indiana didn't have its own high school so they arranged to have her go to Etna High School. My uncles went to Connelly Trade School in Pittsburgh.

A lot of schools were a lot smaller back in the day as well.
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