Where is the Ghetto? (Wilkinsburg, Trooper: upper-class, power lines, condos)

[MissShona]

Originally Posted by vwscottie

It's obvious that it is very popular with lower income families and you can see many signs of homes boarded up, probably because of drug activity or just homes being let go to unlivable standards.

In my neighborhood back in Miami, the average home price was about $350K. And there were...oh, 4 or 5 "boarded up" homes within 4 blocks of me. That's because the homes were in foreclosure; and banks board up the homes to prevent damage and unauthorized entry. It doesn't mean the neighborhood is poor or that there is drug activity (or maybe there was drug activity...given all the doctors that lived there )

[thomasburkejr]

I want to thank EVERYONE for their opinions and knowledge on this thread. I am a new member to this forum and I am recieving great insight on Pittsburgh! I want to give kudos to Guylocke for the Silver and Gold story... perfect!

[vwscottie]

Originally Posted by MissShona

In my neighborhood back in Miami, the average home price was about $350K. And there were...oh, 4 or 5 "boarded up" homes within 4 blocks of me. That's because the homes were in foreclosure; and banks board up the homes to prevent damage and unauthorized entry. It doesn't mean the neighborhood is poor or that there is drug activity (or maybe there was drug activity...given all the doctors that lived there )

Well Miss Know it All, trust me, there aren't any doctors living in the area I'm talking about, mainly around the Highland Avenue/East Liberty Avenue area.

[MissShona]

Originally Posted by vwscottie

Well Miss Know it All, trust me, there aren't any doctors living in the area I'm talking about, mainly around the Highland Avenue/East Liberty Avenue area.

I hardly know it all; I'm just pointing out your presumption is a bit inaccurate. Jeez

[Drover]

It's a curious thing to see people in this thread trivialize the gang, drug and ghetto presence in Pittsburgh. On a per-capita basis, Pittsburgh has plenty of each. The primary difference between the ghettos and gang activities in Pittsburgh versus larger cities is of scale more than substance. From year to year, Pittsburgh's murder rate is usually no better, and often notably worse, than that of Chicago and L.A. Who's doing all the killing? Gangs, that's who -- of rival gang members, primarily fighting over drug distribution territories.

It's true that Chicago and L.A. are large, continental distribution centers for the global drug trade whereas Pittsburgh is more of a destination point and a comparatively minor regional distribution center. Yet all that means is that there is a larger organized crime presence in Chicago and L.A. than there is in Pittsburgh. But their direct activities are discreet and underground; the average citizen is rarely ever aware of their presence. The feds have become too efficient at cracking down on organized-crime higher-ups for them to ever again be as bold and conspicuous as they were from the 20s through the 70s.

In other words, they're not the ones out there mowing each other down in droves; it's their foot soldiers on the street doing that. Nowadays, it's the degree and intensity of the drug trade at the street level that most determines how much crime there is in a city and particularly in its ghettos. The top crime bosses don't have to have a major presence in a city for their foot soldiers to create havoc in that city. Pittsburgh is a case in point.

As a previous poster pointed out, the main difference is that in places like Chicago and L.A., the ghetto can go on for miles on end whereas in Pittsburgh, a ghetto resident need only go a mile or two to see a different side of life. But they all have areas dangerous enough that sane people with the means to do so ought to avoid them. Living in Homewood is no more fun or pleasant than living in, say, Roseland in Chicago. Those who think the ghettos in Pittsburgh suck any less than the ghettos in Chicago or L.A. either overestimate how bad the the latter are or underestimate how bad the former are.

I've also seen it happen with people from big cities who are curiously incredulous that smaller cities can (and often do) have very real and legitimate urban problems just like the big boys do. Over in the Milwaukee forum, one L.A. poster announced his intention to move to Milwaukee after describing it as "like a resort town" that is "super-nice across the board" where there is "very little danger." If he actually followed up on his stated ambition to move there, no doubt he is presently in the middle of a rude awakening that will have him pining for the relative peace and safety of Los Angeles.

[vwscottie]

Originally Posted by MissShona

I hardly know it all; I'm just pointing out your presumption is a bit inaccurate. Jeez

I would bet, if you and I were to meet in the parking lot of Home Depot, and have a civic leader or two from that area meet with us, you would find I'm 100 percent correct. You have no idea and no proof that my presumption is inaccurate. All you are doing is constantly trying to discredit the obvious.

[vwscottie]

Originally Posted by Drover

It's a curious thing to see people in this thread trivialize the gang, drug and ghetto presence in Pittsburgh.

I agree, simply walking around Shadyside, East Liberty and other eastern neighborhoods you see signs (grafitti) of a few gangs, one of the more prominent being the "East End Kidz". I watched a tv interview with an officer from the LAPD once and he was indicating that one thing to watch for when moving into a neighborhood is sneekers hanging from electric powerlines, which he claimed is a sign for drug activity. Turn off of Center Avenue on to Highland and head south, and that's what you'll find just past the entrance to Borders.

[MissShona]

Originally Posted by vwscottie

I would bet, if you and I were to meet in the parking lot of Home Depot, and have a civic leader or two from that area meet with us, you would find I'm 100 percent correct. You have no idea and no proof that my presumption is inaccurate. All you are doing is constantly trying to discredit the obvious.

Why do you need civic leaders to see boarded up buildings? You might want to re-read the post I was referring to. You basically implied that if a building is boarded up, then it is a haven for drug activity or that the home was "let go" to unlivable standards. I was just saying that this is not true. If a home is in foreclosure (which happens in all sorts of neighborhoods) a bank may board it up because there may be some issues with the title or otherwise where the home cannot be put back on the market right away. Vandalism to homes can also happen anywhere. I'm just to dispel a myth that if you see a boarded up house...it's an automatic flag that the area is "bad".

[zip95]

Originally Posted by Drover

It's a curious thing to see people in this thread trivialize the gang, drug and ghetto presence in Pittsburgh. On a per-capita basis, Pittsburgh has plenty of each. The primary difference between the ghettos and gang activities in Pittsburgh versus larger cities is of scale more than substance. From year to year, Pittsburgh's murder rate is usually no better, and often notably worse, than that of Chicago and L.A. Who's doing all the killing? Gangs, that's who -- of rival gang members, primarily fighting over drug distribution territories.

It's true that Chicago and L.A. are large, continental distribution centers for the global drug trade whereas Pittsburgh is more of a destination point and a comparatively minor regional distribution center. Yet all that means is that there is a larger organized crime presence in Chicago and L.A. than there is in Pittsburgh. But their direct activities are discreet and underground; the average citizen is rarely ever aware of their presence. The feds have become too efficient at cracking down on organized-crime higher-ups for them to ever again be as bold and conspicuous as they were from the 20s through the 70s.

In other words, they're not the ones out there mowing each other down in droves; it's their foot soldiers on the street doing that. Nowadays, it's the degree and intensity of the drug trade at the street level that most determines how much crime there is in a city and particularly in its ghettos. The top crime bosses don't have to have a major presence in a city for their foot soldiers to create havoc in that city. Pittsburgh is a case in point.

As a previous poster pointed out, the main difference is that in places like Chicago and L.A., the ghetto can go on for miles on end whereas in Pittsburgh, a ghetto resident need only go a mile or two to see a different side of life. But they all have areas dangerous enough that sane people with the means to do so ought to avoid them. Living in Homewood is no more fun or pleasant than living in, say, Roseland in Chicago. Those who think the ghettos in Pittsburgh suck any less than the ghettos in Chicago or L.A. either overestimate how bad the the latter are or underestimate how bad the former are.

I've also seen it happen with people from big cities who are curiously incredulous that smaller cities can (and often do) have very real and legitimate urban problems just like the big boys do. Over in the Milwaukee forum, one L.A. poster announced his intention to move to Milwaukee after describing it as "like a resort town" that is "super-nice across the board" where there is "very little danger." If he actually followed up on his stated ambition to move there, no doubt he is presently in the middle of a rude awakening that will have him pining for the relative peace and safety of Los Angeles.

Hi Drover,

You're confusing this new-pittsburgh forum with the old-pittsburgh forum where we had intelligent discussions. We don't do intelligence here anymore.

Anyway, what seems to have changed your mind? You used to be of the opinion that Pittsburgh's "bad" neighborhoods were comparatively mild. I thought that you and Pimps (PPG) where often on opposite sides of the discussion.

Either way, while I agree with you that the vast majority of violence is organized crime related, I think you grossly underestimate the knucklehead factor. The knucklehead factor is when 16 year old males start shooting for the slightest of infractions. I think that the percentage of knuckleheads at any given time could be the difference between the horrible ghettos and the ok ghettos.

PS

I wouldn't be surprised if the knucklehead percentage correlated with income.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by zip95

Hi Drover,

You're confusing this new-pittsburgh forum with the old-pittsburgh forum where we had intelligent discussions. We don't do intelligence here anymore.

Anyway, what seems to have changed your mind? You used to be of the opinion that Pittsburgh's "bad" neighborhoods were comparatively mild. I thought that you and Pimps (PPG) where often on opposite sides of the discussion.

Either way, while I agree with you that the vast majority of violence is organized crime related, I think you grossly underestimate the knucklehead factor. The knucklehead factor is when 16 year old males start shooting for the slightest of infractions. I think that the percentage of knuckleheads at any given time could be the difference between the horrible ghettos and the ok ghettos.

PS

I wouldn't be surprised if the knucklehead percentage correlated with income.

My main argument with PPG is the notion that "the ghetto is the ghetto" and there are no degrees of how bad a ghetto can be. I have always conceded that there comes a point where a ghetto just gets bad enough that there's no point in arguing degrees of how bad one is versus another. He and I are on very different levels on where that degree is. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather live in, say, Beltzhoover or Knoxville than Homewood, though God willing, I'll never have to live in any of them or places like them. But you are also right; after following the "My Homewood" series by Elwin Green, I have adjusted upward the point where it's not worth arguing degrees any more.

That said, I have always realized that Pittsburgh has very real urban issues that cannot be trivialized away by claiming "it's worse in the big cities." While the absolute worst parts of Chicago may be a few degrees worse than the absolute worst parts of Pittsburgh, they both have plenty of genuinely bad parts and major urban issues that need to be dealt with -- and that on a per-capita basis, and certainly from a resource-availability standpoint, Pittsburgh is not necessarily in a better starting position than Chicago or L.A. is on dealing with them.

Finally, the "knucklehead factor" is closely tied to flat-out gang activity. Turning kids into knuckleheads is a necessary part of the gang "human resource" infrastructure. Someone is supplying those knuckleheads with the guns they use to carry out their knuckleheadery.