The Hill vs. East Liberty (Pittsburgh, Carnegie: section 8, rentals, crime)

[Rocket88]

The Hill and East Liberty as many of us know have had a lot in common the last fifty years or so. The Hill was decimated in it's lower portion in favor for an arena surrounded by acres of parking and nothing else.
East Liberty cut off vehicular traffic with some newfangled "urban mall" concept that did nothing more to encourage loitering and crime to help kill that neighborhood.
Eat Liberty and the ELDI have done a great job of working with developers and revitalizing the area by also keeping residents happy with new housing.
The Hill also has seen some new housing in Crawford Square and other housing projects. I just think that it would behoove Hill leaders to not expect every development to kick in x amount to the neighborhood other than the price of the land and development itself. That should be enough. The Hill could see new office development in six, eight, ten story structures. It's position adjacent to Oakland and Downtown is second to none. The Hill could boom like East Liberty. There's no doubt in my mind. Being business friendly and having reasonable demands rather than strong arming and looking for handouts would be a step in the right direction. There is no reason why the Hill should not see the same type of growth as East Liberty. If a developer come in with an ambitious proposal, it is natural to have certain concerns and questions and even demands that are within reason. I personally feel that some developers are shying away for fear of having pitchforks and torches thrown at them at the first community meeting with Hill leaders stirring the pot.

[I_Like_Spam]

East Liberty is at the crossroads of the world, people were always driving through it to get to points all over, even if they weren't stopping and even when the place was down on its luck. Bus patrons transferred among the many routes going through EL, and still do.


On the other hand, the Hill is, for lack of a better term, a hill.


Unless people have business there, they aren't inclined to ever drive through the area. If you are at Schenley High school and you need to go to town, you're going to take the Bigelow or 5th Ave or the Blvd if you are heading to town or west.

You just aren't likely to take Centre.

The Hill District is out of sight for most Pittsburghers, at least most white Pittsburghers.

[Rocket88]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

East Liberty is at the crossroads of the world, people were always driving through it to get to points all over, even if they weren't stopping and even when the place was down on its luck. Bus patrons transferred among the many routes going through EL, and still do.


On the other hand, the Hill is, for lack of a better term, a hill.


Unless people have business there, they aren't inclined to ever drive through the area. If you are at Schenley High school and you need to go to town, you're going to take the Bigelow or 5th Ave or the Blvd if you are heading to town or west.

You just aren't likely to take Centre.

The Hill District is out of sight for most Pittsburghers, at least most white Pittsburghers.

I agree with this to an extent. East Liberty is a plateau whereas the The Hill is it's namesake. But the location of The Hill can't be denied, between the 2nd and 3rd largest CBD's in the state. It is on a hill, but not too steep in most parts for widespread development. We've gotten pretty good at figuring out how to build on inclined planes here in Pittsburgh. I can see developers eyeballing large parcels in The Hill in the not too distant future as other areas get snatched up and the potential comes to fruition. Cooperation among Hill leaders and citizen groups along with the city is a must.

[Augie6]

IF I had the money I would buy up as much of the HILL as possible... missed my chance with E lib.... Pittsburgh is only growing..

[ditchdigger]

Sounds like gentrification to me. I thought that was a bad thing?

[airwave09]

Originally Posted by ditchdigger

Sounds like gentrification to me. I thought that was a bad thing?

Only if it entirely pushes out the current population and its culture through skyrocketing land values. The Hill is mostly abandoned already except for Sugar Top, so it's almost a blank slate in many areas.

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by airwave09

Only if it entirely pushes out the current population and its culture through skyrocketing land values. The Hill is mostly abandoned already except for Sugar Top, so it's almost a blank slate in many areas.

Not true. There are populated pockets throughout the Hill District. Sugar Top is not as affluent as Crawford Square and adjacent areas. I cant think of one city neighborhood that has had more new construction over the past 10 years. Everything from 250K single family homes to mixed income rowhouse rentals popped up in the Hill over the last decade.

[gg]

Originally Posted by Rocket88

The Hill and East Liberty as many of us know have had a lot in common the last fifty years or so. The Hill was decimated in it's lower portion in favor for an arena surrounded by acres of parking and nothing else.
East Liberty cut off vehicular traffic with some newfangled "urban mall" concept that did nothing more to encourage loitering and crime to help kill that neighborhood.

I don't buy into this one bit. The Hill went down hill with Pittsburgh's massive population loss and the people that lived there couldn't keep it going at all. East Liberty did the same. Both mostly poor black families that didn't keep anything nice and the places were pretty much left to rot. It had nothing to do with the Civic Arena or the dumb road around the center of East Liberty. It had everything to do with the super poor moving in and they turned into slums. Of course slumlords didn't help, but in the end if people do nothing to work or keep a neighborhood going at all, it falls apart. Blaming it on anything else is silly.

East Liberty is making a bit of a turn, but it will never see its old grad self. Too many section 8 places that certainly didn't exist in the good old days. Most folks with money don't want to live alongside those that don't care about themselves and just litter and just not care. It will be okay in East Liberty, but that is about it. The Hill? I don't think that will ever really come around.

Enjoy this wonderful day!

[Rocket88]

Originally Posted by wpipkins2

Not true. There are populated pockets throughout the Hill District. Sugar Top is not as affluent as Crawford Square and adjacent areas. I cant think of one city neighborhood that has had more new construction over the past 10 years. Everything from 250K single family homes to mixed income rowhouse rentals popped up in the Hill over the last decade.

There may be populated pockets but if one does an aerial flyover they will notice that there are tons of empty lots where there used to be homes and businesses. This does not even include the # of vacant and/or boarded up properties. This should not be the case between two very busy CBDs. That will change if politicians, developers can work together with Hill leaders. Yes there has been some development near Crawford Square etc. It can see more widespread development like the Strip is seeing.

[wpipkins2]

Originally Posted by Rocket88

There may be populated pockets but if one does an aerial flyover they will notice that there are tons of empty lots where there used to be homes and businesses. This does not even include the # of vacant and/or boarded up properties. This should not be the case between two very busy CBDs. That will change if politicians, developers can work together with Hill leaders. Yes there has been some development near Crawford Square etc. It can see more widespread development like the Strip is seeing.

More housing units were added to the Hill District than the Strip. The population was of the Hill District was over 50,000 in the 1950's. I do not think the neighborhood was built to accomodate that many people. I do not think the Hill should compete with East Liberty or the Strip District. The Hill is still a great neighborhood to some and can come back because of its location. Development is creaping up Centre Ave and will reach Kirkpatric St. soon. The Carnegie Library was built at Centre and Kirkpatric to book end the development area. The new Thelma B. Lovette YMCA is an amazing complex on the other end of the targeted area. Historic preservation is slated for the blocks that still have viable structures.