10-28-2015, 08:35 AM
8,090 posts, read
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Reputation: 9225
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BigPizzaHutFan
How does fast food workers making $15 an hour "penalize" you financially?
He loses the ability to look down on them and feel better about himself.
10-28-2015, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
tyovan4
Do you really not understand how this is going to work? It's Econ 101.
Labor costs are going to rise if the minimum wage is effectively doubled. Do you think that cocmpanies are just going to eat that cost increase from their bottom line, out of the goodness of their hearts? If so, please pass whatever you're smoking.
Costs rise. Companies want to maintain their profits. So, they raise prices to compensate for their additional labor costs that have been tacked on by pie-in-the-sky leftists. Price increases get passed on to consumers. So now, when I want to purchase the same goods or services that I wanted before the minimum wage increase, they end up costing me more as the companies passed their increased labor costs on to me in the form of increased prices. So its money out of my pocket, thus limiting my disposable income.
So yes, increased minimum wage will penalize working class people as it will have a detrimental effect on our disposable income - and such effects will be felt far more harshly by people such as myself rather than people such as you.
So, you would prefer that the working poor make an unfair wage so that you have more disposable income? Interesting.
Once again, you are already paying the maximum for any given good or service that the purveyor thinks you will pay. The cost of that good or service has little to do with the final cost. A pair of sneakers costs Nike less than $5 to produce and you pay twenty times that at retail.
10-28-2015, 08:37 AM
385 posts, read
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Reputation: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gladhands
He loses the ability to look down on them and feel better about himself.
This is it, he's just dressing it up. He has a subset of people he feels he is better than, and the idea of those people being on equal financial footing to him would hurt his feelings - look at the words he uses: "people who haven't worked their way up," "why should my pocket be picked," etc. He even managed to work in the "people in housing projects live better than me" chestnut.
It's a widely held sentiment in America. Shameful.
10-28-2015, 08:39 AM
Location: Marshall-Shadeland, Pittsburgh, PA
32,606 posts, read
77,287,663 times
Reputation: 19071
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tyovan4
Do you really not understand how this is going to work? It's Econ 101.
Labor costs are going to rise if the minimum wage is effectively doubled. Do you think that companies are just going to eat that cost increase from their bottom line, out of the goodness of their hearts? If so, please pass whatever you're smoking.
Costs rise. Companies want to maintain their profits. So, they raise prices to compensate for their additional labor costs that have been tacked on by pie-in-the-sky leftists. Price increases get passed on to consumers. So now, when I want to purchase the same goods or services that I wanted before the minimum wage increase, they end up costing me more as the companies passed their increased labor costs on to me in the form of increased prices. So its money out of my pocket, thus limiting my disposable income.
So yes, increased minimum wage will penalize working class people as it will have a detrimental effect on our disposable income - and such effects will be felt far more harshly by people such as myself rather than people such as you.
^ Agreed 100%
I only make slightly more than you do annually, and I know I don't have additional discretionary income to spend so everyone else can make $15/hr. as a minimum wage. Unless I got a raise (not likely, since I'm an independent contractor---not an employee), then this would do nothing but supplant my own socioeconomic status and put me and the thousands like me onto the government's dole.
10-28-2015, 08:42 AM
Location: Marshall-Shadeland, Pittsburgh, PA
32,606 posts, read
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Reputation: 19071
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BigPizzaHutFan
So, you would prefer that the working poor make an unfair wage so that you have more disposable income? Interesting.
Once again, you are already paying the maximum for any given good or service that the purveyor thinks you will pay. The cost of that good or service has little to do with the final cost. A pair of sneakers costs Nike less than $5 to produce and you pay twenty times that at retail.
Right. Now let's assume by doubling wages that those shoes will then cost $10 to produce. In order to keep profit margin the same on those sneakers, Nike will be increasing the price on those sneakers, which hurts those who have limited discretionary income. If you think any corporate entity is just going to "eat" rising labor costs rather than pass that burden onto consumers and/or look for ways to automate those more expensive workers out of jobs, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.
10-28-2015, 08:44 AM
385 posts, read
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelCityRising
Right. Now let's assume by doubling wages that those shoes will then cost $10 to produce. In order to keep profit margin the same on those sneakers, Nike will be increasing the price on those sneakers, which hurts those who have limited discretionary income. If you think any corporate entity is just going to "eat" rising labor costs rather than pass that burden onto consumers and/or look for ways to automate those more expensive workers out of jobs, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.
You are already paying the maximum the company thinks you will pay. Labor will be automated away if possible whether you're paying them $15 an hour or $3 an hour.
That matter aside, do you feel that it's a morally defensible stance to want to see the working poor suffer so that you have more money to spend?
10-28-2015, 08:44 AM
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Reputation: 12390
While I'm not someone active in Fight for $15, I have been active in the labor movement my entire adult life, so maybe I can shed light on a few things here.
First, negotiations 101 is you always start with an ask of more than you can get. If the employer is offering 1% you demand 5% initially if you want to end up at 3%. I think there is the understanding that except in some high-cost metros the $15 demand is not achievable in the short term. But it's useful to bring up, because it shifts the public debate (
or "Overton window" as it's called in academic discourse ) on the issue of the pay of service workers.
Secondly, it's not really about fast food, it's about all low-paid work. Lots of employers outside of fast food, including Wal-Mart, Target, Starbucks, and Aetna, have raised the wages of their lowest workers in direct response to the Fight for $15 movement. Minimum wages have been rising on a statewide level across the country as well - even in "conservative" states like Arkansas when voters are allowed to raise them via initiative.
Third, the movement is probably necessary to combat the current economic stagnation of our economy. In the "recovery" from the Great Recession real wages have been flat, despite the unemployment rate continuing to edge down. If real wages for Americans do not rise, people do not have more money to spend, and since consumer spending tends to be one of the major driving forces of the U.S. economy, less jobs are in turn created. The vast majority of the wealth generated recovery have gone to the upper-middle and upper classes only. Even setting aside questions of injustice, this is bad from a standpoint of economic stimulus, because working people spend virtually all of the money they earn, while wealthy people only spend a portion of each dollar, saving quite a bit as well. And indeed, what we have seen is that investments have done well over the last six years, but consumer spending and job growth not so much.
I do agree that automation of a lot of fast food jobs in particular (especially those on the cashier side) is just around the corner, and in that sense, concentrating on fast food in public relations was perhaps not the best tactic. But at most higher fast food wages will speed up the process by a few years - it was inevitable. But I think the tradeoff of ensuring the jobs we have remaining are good-paying jobs with dignity is worth it.
10-28-2015, 08:46 AM
Location: Etna, PA
2,860 posts, read
1,878,274 times
Reputation: 2747
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BigPizzaHutFan
So, you would prefer that the working poor make an unfair wage so that you have more disposable income? Interesting.
Not my fault they're making that amount of money. I worked my way up, they can too.
One of the individuals a local paper (I honestly forget if it was the Trib or the P-G) interviewed about this $15/hour shenanigan had worked at Wendy's for 20-30 years. It's not my fault that he stayed in fast-food for that long - get experience, get a position in a sit-down restaurant, and work your way up. If he settled for fast-food for decades, that's his fault not mine.
Even the original article from this thread was so stupidly framed.
The article pointed out how residents make about $50k per year. A resident is a physician with a doctorate! And they're working about 80 hours per week. Comparing that to janitorial staff and other support staff making half of that (while also working about half of the hours!!) is just asinine.
10-28-2015, 08:48 AM
385 posts, read
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Reputation: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tyovan4
Not my fault they're making that amount of money. I worked my way up, they can too.
One of the individuals a local paper (I honestly forget if it was the Trib or the P-G) interviewed about this $15/hour shenanigan had worked at Wendy's for 20-30 years. It's not my fault that he stayed in fast-food for that long - get experience, get a position in a sit-down restaurant, and work your way up. If he settled for fast-food for decades, that's his fault not mine.
Even the original article from this thread was so stupidly framed.
The article pointed out how residents make about $50k per year. A resident is a physician with a doctorate! And they're working about 80 hours per week. Comparing that to janitorial staff and other support staff making half of that (while also working about half of the hours!!) is just asinine.
Looking at your stated income, I would hardly say you've worked your way up. Why should hard-working fast food employees suffer because you can't work your way into a higher income, but still want to feel superior to them?
10-28-2015, 08:48 AM
Location: Etna, PA
2,860 posts, read
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Reputation: 2747
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelCityRising
^ Agreed 100%
I only make slightly more than you do annually, and I know I don't have additional discretionary income to spend so everyone else can make $15/hr. as a minimum wage. Unless I got a raise (not likely, since I'm an independent contractor---not an employee), then this would do nothing but supplant my own socioeconomic status and put me and the thousands like me onto the government's dole.
Thank you SCR!! You and I are in the same economic boat and understand how the real world works outside of the East End progressive bubble!!!!
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Most Common Occupations - Natural resources, construction, and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Construction and extraction occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)