HELP!-- 3 Families Moving from NYC to Pittsburgh???? (Allentown, Penn Hills: highrise, relocating)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by By~Tor

Okay - - I've had a bit of time to look over the map, and I wanted to ask how the following neighborhoods are, in relation to the price range ($140K), the safety, and the easy access to good groceries and transportation:

• Strip District
• Bluff
• Shadyside
• Bloomfield
• Mount Washington
• Duquesne Heights

If you are looking at the part of Pittsburgh through the Strip, Bloomfield, and on into Shadyside, my suggestion would be to look at Polish Hill, Lawrenceville, and Friendship as well. Those are more residential areas than the Strip, and much more affordable than Shadyside.

I think Polish Hill in particular is an interesting little neighborhood. It is well-located for getting quickly to the Strip, Bloomfield, Downtown, and Oakland (in fact there are some popular "short cuts" through Polish Hill for people who are driving between those parts of Pittsburgh), and many of the homes have great views. Because it is relatively affordable, well-located, and safe, for quite a while it has been a place a lot of grad students would look for housing, and they would end up living alongside a typical Pittsburgh mix of aging blue collar folks (as the name of the neighborhood implies, many of Polish descent, but not all). Recently, though, supposedly some young families and artist types are starting to move into the neighborhood, presumably for the same reasons the students did (affordability, location, and safety).

One downside--in addition to the fact it is a pretty hilly neighborhood--is that almost all the retail has moved out of Polish Hill, except for a couple bars. But recently there seems to be movement toward getting some retail back into Polish Hill. Which makes sense: once you have the young families and artist types coming in, you start to have a market for walkable restaurants, corner stores, delis, coffee shops, and so on.

Another downside is that Polish Hill stills looks a little unkempt, which in part is a byproduct of there being so many low budget rental units. But if Polish Hill follows the track of other similar neighborhoods (e.g., Lawrenceville and Friendship), one might expect that to change over time as owner-occupiers start taking over those rental buildings. And it also might make Polish Hill a good bet for relatively high appreciation rates--assuming, of course, all these things I have heard are true and they continue along the same track.

Anyway, I wanted to give this little extended essay on Polish Hill just because its possibilities might not be readily apparent to someone unfamiliar with Pittsburgh and its neighborhoods.

[BrianTH]

By the way, I don't know if this will help, but I wanted to express some overall thoughts as you look for places.

As you are probably gathering, it turns out there are a lot of city neighborhoods in Pittsburgh that fit most of the things on your wish list (except perhaps for a high concentration of Hungarians). Unfortunately, it turns out that recently a lot of people have started to look for places in Pittsburgh using a similar wish list, including young professionals. As a result, property prices in those neighborhoods have been going up relatively rapidly by Pittsburgh standards. So, while your budget would probably have gone pretty far ten or even five years ago, now it may be a little on the low side for some of the nicer neighborhoods people are mentioning.

As I see it, there are a few possible non-exclusive approaches to this issue. One of course is just to keep looking, because sometimes bargains in even the nicer neighborhoods show up. Another is to get a sense of which things on your wish list are least important to you (e.g., how big a yard is important? is it OK if the nearest grocery store is short drive/bus ride away? and so on). And a third is to maybe look at some of Pittsburgh's more "transitional" neighborhoods, the ones which may not be exactly what you would want right now but appear to be heading in that direction.

Again, I don't know if that was helpful, but that is sort of how I would be thinking about finding a place for you given your wish list and budget.

[By~Tor]

Thanks Brian, and to be quite honest, we're getting to be "old hands" at the initial stages of home-seeking, as we had previously looked at Rochester, Connecticut and Philly before we found out that Pittsburgh was GOING to be the end resulting location.

I've seen a few nicer homes in our range on the web, and this weekend, hopefully, we'll get a chance to feel out the neighborhoods as we visit. Right now, I'm actually having a difficult time getting in touch with any agents who would be available to do a showing or three on such short notice....

[fleetiebelle]

I'd second the recommendation of Polish Hill--it's easy to get public transport to downtown, Oakland, and the Strip (for shopping) and it's not far from the new East Liberty developments. Plus, it's affordable and safe.

[ainulinale]

Anyway, since my links to real estate sites were cut, you can check them out yourself if you want...I just posted them because they offer search engines for various Pittsburgh neighborhood housing prices. I think this would be helpful to you...apparently we must follow the letter of the law though.

[By~Tor]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

I'd second the recommendation of Polish Hill--it's easy to get public transport to downtown, Oakland, and the Strip (for shopping) and it's not far from the new East Liberty developments. Plus, it's affordable and safe.

But now, looking back over the other posts, they are saying Polish Hill ISN'T that great anymore.....

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[fleetiebelle]

they are saying Polish Hill ISN'T that great anymore.....

I didn't read it like that at all. Polish Hill is definitely at a transitional point, and it's not as much of an established "hot spot" like Squirrel Hill, Bloomfield, or Lawrenceville, but it's definitely worth a look. One of my coworkers and her husband bought a house there a few years ago, and they just love it.

Here's an article from the City Paper about the neighborhood: On the Brink: Could Polish Hill be on a verge of an upswing? - News - News - Pittsburgh City Paper - Pittsburgh

I kind of feel the same about my own neighborhood (Beechview) It's not perfect, but it's got potential.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by By~Tor

But now, looking back over the other posts, they are saying Polish Hill ISN'T that great anymore.....

It is somewhat hard to explain neighborhoods like Polish Hill, particularly to people unfamiliar with Pittsburgh and its history.

The basic story is that Polish Hill was one of many neighborhoods that was built up by immigrants coming to work blue collar jobs during Pittsburgh's boom period in the first half of the 20th Century (and note at that time at least, blue collar jobs quickly allowed people to become solidly middle class). But then a combination of forces in the second half of the 20th Century (the rise of car culture, poor urban planning, the collapse of the steel industry, and so on) caused neighborhoods like Polish Hill to go into decline. What happened at that point depended on the neighborhood, but in Polish Hill it meant an aging population, the loss of retail, a transition from owner occupation to rental units, and a degrading housing stock.

Recently, however, things are changing again. Once more, a combination of forces (the rise of the new urbanism trend, better urban development plans, the gradual transition of Pittsburgh to a service center economy, and so on) are causing many of these neighborhoods to come back to life. Again what that means depends on the neighborhood, but it generally involves young families moving in, people opening up new restaurants and shops, rental properties being converted back to owner occupation, and money being invested in renovation. In other words, the exact sorts of things a neighborhood like Polish Hill needs.

But this is all a gradual process, and it is working at a different pace in different neighborhoods. For example, I think it would be safe to say that my neighborhood--Regent Square--has gotten pretty far down this track. Lawrenceville has lately been one of Pittsburgh's hottest property markets, and also has gotten pretty far down this track. Friendship is maybe a bit farther behind (although it has enormous potential in part because of some pretty whopping big homes--this is where some upper middle class management types used to have their homes).

And that brings us back to Polish Hill. At least the optimists among us see no reason why Polish Hill can't start heading down this same track, and there are some signs that is indeed starting to happen. And if you buy a home in a neighborhood that goes down this track close to the beginning of the process, it should turn out to be a good investment. But realistically, even the optimists among us can't promise you to what degree all this is going to happen in Polish Hill, nor how fast it will happen.

But the good news about Polish Hill is that it isn't a bad place to live right now. Statistically, it is by far one the safest neighborhoods in the city, and its location is great. And it really is still very affordable, even by the standards of an affordable city. Again, though, it isn't perfect by any means (e.g., the current lack of walkable retail, the fact it is fairly lacking in "curb appeal", and so on).

By the way, oddly enough I have no real emotional investment in Polish Hill (for example, I have never lived there), even though I am promoting it here. Again, though, I do think it is one of those neighborhoods that has some things going for it that would not be immediately obvious to people new to Pittsburgh, so I thought it was worth elaborating.

[Geeo]

Excellent post, BrianTH. You've summed up Polish Hill very well. Although I don't live there, I do drive through there from time to time, and it always reminds me of a European village. The dominant structure is the huge domed Catholic church that was built by the Polish immigrants when they settled in the neighborhood. Many of the men worked in the Pennsylvania Railroad yards, which were at the bottom of the hill. It's a tight-knit neighborhood with some old world charm. There are new families moving in and some new housing being built that blends well with the old architecture. It's a pretty safe area and situated strategically between downtown and Oakland. There is also a busway station at Herron Avenue that can get you downtown or to Shadyside/East Liberty in a matter of minutes.

[ainulinale]

Yes, good post BrianTH; but I just wanted to mention that even though Polish Hill is a safe area, it is a very small area, and being next to the Hill District means you don't have to go far to find trouble. The Strip and Lawrenceville are right below Polish Hill, and even though they aren't unsafe areas, you really don't want to walk around there at night unless your looking for clubs in the Strip. My point is this: if your looking for safety, then you're probably going to be rather confined in Polish Hill.