Pittsburgh pessimism (California: construction, safe, move to)

[sadinpgh]

I'm sure it's not on every street in every neighborhood, and I just read through and don't recall anyone saying "all white people are racist in Pittsburgh." And it is absolutely a relief to see that it seems to be waning little by little with younger generations. But for the naysayers, you can look at areas that used to be predominantly white and, well, are now mostly black. I'm not from here, and could be wrong with the history I've been told, but I've been told that Penn Hills used to be a "nice" area full of white people, and once a few black people moved in, a few whites moved out, and so forth and so forth. A friend of mine who grew up in Monroeville said he's trying to talk his parents into moving into a whiter neighborhood before that area gets "bad."

Also, erieguy, unfortunately I think you may still be misunderstanding the story. You see, the comparisons are not made by someone who never left Pittsburgh. Silly. The comparisons are made by someone who lived somewhere else, and then moved to here.
Similar to my case, my wife's case and when her parents visit, their case as well. My mother in law dreads coming to visit for obvious reasons.

[gladhands]

Originally Posted by sadinpgh

I'm sure it's not on every street in every neighborhood, and I just read through and don't recall anyone saying "all white people are racist in Pittsburgh." And it is absolutely a relief to see that it seems to be waning little by little with younger generations. But for the naysayers, you can look at areas that used to be predominantly white and, well, are now mostly black. I'm not from here, and could be wrong with the history I've been told, but I've been told that Penn Hills used to be a "nice" area full of white people, and once a few black people moved in, a few whites moved out, and so forth and so forth. A friend of mine who grew up in Monroeville said he's trying to talk his parents into moving into a whiter neighborhood before that area gets "bad."

Also, erieguy, unfortunately I think you may still be misunderstanding the story. You see, the comparisons are not made by someone who never left Pittsburgh. Silly. The comparisons are made by someone who lived somewhere else, and then moved to here.
Similar to my case, my wife's case and when her parents visit, their case as well. My mother in law dreads coming to visit for obvious reasons.

You've described the typical white flight pattern which is responsible for most American exurbs. Pittsburgh is hardly unique in this aspect

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm sorry, but I'm calling bull****.

I remember within like four months of moving to Pittsburgh hearing my first case of outward racism. I was in the laundromat on Liberty Avenue in Bloomfield, and this guy who was a small-time contractor was going on to one of his friends about how a black employee of his got mad at him for using the N word. His defenses were along the lines of "There are black people and N___s - I ain't calling you one!" and "How can I be racist when I have a half-black son!" It blew my mind.

You've said you grew up in the City, or at least have relatives here. This means you've had more interactions with working-class white Pittsburgh than I have ever had, both in terms of duration and frequency. You must have heard comments like this. If you sincerely can't remember, maybe it's just because they were such a normal, commonplace part of life that it wasn't even registering in your long term memory.

Again, I love assumptions. Never been in a laundromat or anywhere anyone said anything openly negative about a black person.

Id wager it's more normal/commonplace for those who are obsessed with everything a white person says and is sensitive to every white person around them.

I will say, depending on where you frequent, I could see some low life racist people making remarks. I could also see it going both ways.

[sadinpgh]

And, fact of the matter is, there are people, like those who are naysaying the race issue, that are proving one of my points as one of the most frustrating things about Pittsburgh. If someone were to ask for advice before moving here, it would be this that is given to them. "No matter what you think, Pittsburgh is right, Pittsburgh is perfect, nothing bad has ever happened here unless it's happening everywhere else, no Pittsburgher is wrong, there's never a reason to live anywhere else."
Denying that there is a problem is perpetuating the problem. This region needs to drop the pride and understand that it's ok for your city to have problems. My favorite place that I've lived was Fairbanks. The people were generally warm and welcoming, the scenery is devastatingly beautiful, there's plenty to do, the economy is strong and there's something to appreciate in all seasons. It's heaven for me. But, there's also rampant alcoholism and in some communities a very sad but real rape culture. No place is perfect and it's ok to understand that. But if you don't admit it, it'll never get fixed.
So kudos to the local born natives who are saying yes, this is not the most perfect place on Earth (not saying it's not good for many to live in) and I feel sorry for those of you who are saying they have been here their whole lives, and feel that they see nothing wrong with the way non WASP non native borns are viewed here. It's just stubbornness I suppose.

[bradjl2009]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm sorry, but I'm calling bull****.

I remember within like four months of moving to Pittsburgh hearing my first case of outward racism. I was in the laundromat on Liberty Avenue in Bloomfield, and this guy who was a small-time contractor was going on to one of his friends about how a black employee of his got mad at him for using the N word. His defenses were along the lines of "There are black people and N___s - I ain't calling you one!" and "How can I be racist when I have a half-black son!" It blew my mind.

You've said you grew up in the City, or at least have relatives here. This means you've had more interactions with working-class white Pittsburgh than I have ever had, both in terms of duration and frequency. You must have heard comments like this. If you sincerely can't remember, maybe it's just because they were such a normal, commonplace part of life that it wasn't even registering in your long term memory.

I have heard someone as well say something along the lines of this too; not in public like that but at someone's house. I've never meant to come across as saying no one is racist in Pittsburgh (if I did come off that way; I was just making note how rarely I see the flag) but I don't know if it's worse here than in other cities.

[sadinpgh]

Never said it never happens anywhere else. Just saying that Pittsburgh's segregation is a reason that we find it unacceptable here. Same reason I would not live in D.C. and the same reason I would not live in Detroit. It's not a matter of whether white flight has ever happened anywhere else, it's a matter of finding a place with culturally and racially integrated, low crime suburban areas. They exist .... just not here. I don't want my kids to go to school thinking that it's normal to have one black kid in a graduating class of over 300. Or for her to be looked at as "different" because she not 100% white, just like every other kid in her class. It's just too segregated in the north. (no, that's not a typo)

[gladhands]

Originally Posted by sadinpgh

And, fact of the matter is, there are people, like those who are naysaying the race issue, that are proving one of my points as one of the most frustrating things about Pittsburgh. If someone were to ask for advice before moving here, it would be this that is given to them. "No matter what you think, Pittsburgh is right, Pittsburgh is perfect, nothing bad has ever happened here unless it's happening everywhere else, no Pittsburgher is wrong, there's never a reason to live anywhere else."
Denying that there is a problem is perpetuating the problem. This region needs to drop the pride and understand that it's ok for your city to have problems. My favorite place that I've lived was Fairbanks. The people were generally warm and welcoming, the scenery is devastatingly beautiful, there's plenty to do, the economy is strong and there's something to appreciate in all seasons. It's heaven for me. But, there's also rampant alcoholism and in some communities a very sad but real rape culture. No place is perfect and it's ok to understand that. But if you don't admit it, it'll never get fixed.
So kudos to the local born natives who are saying yes, this is not the most perfect place on Earth (not saying it's not good for many to live in) and I feel sorry for those of you who are saying they have been here their whole lives, and feel that they see nothing wrong with the way non WASP non native borns are viewed here. It's just stubbornness I suppose.

Ironically, it's the Pittsburgh doom-and-gloomers who are denying the racism, and the boosters acknowledging it.

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by gladhands

You've described the typical white flight pattern which is responsible for most American exurbs. Pittsburgh is hardly unique in this aspect

I can easily see those who had neighbors that were so quick to throw the race card and so obsessed with thinking every white person is racist, moving in a second. Nobody would want to deal with that on a daily basis.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by bradjl2009

I have heard someone as well say something along the lines of this too; not in public like that but at someone's house. I've never meant to come across as saying no one is racist in Pittsburgh (if I did come off that way; I was just making note how rarely I see the flag) but I don't know if it's worse here than in other cities.

I'm not sure I'd say Pittsburgh racism is worse than it was growing up in Connecticut. It's just much more overt. Where I grew up in Connecticut no one would ever say the N word, or even "the blacks." Things were discussed more in terms of euphemisms. The mayor of my hometown ended up losing an election when he openly said he didn't want affordable housing because "the Puerto Ricans would move in" for example. But the people were the typical northern suburbanites - absolutely terrified to go anywhere there were a significant number of black people.

[bradjl2009]

Originally Posted by sadinpgh

Never said it never happens anywhere else. Just saying that Pittsburgh's segregation is a reason that we find it unacceptable here. Same reason I would not live in D.C. and the same reason I would not live in Detroit. It's not a matter of whether white flight has ever happened anywhere else, it's a matter of finding a place with culturally and racially integrated, low crime suburban areas. They exist .... just not here. I don't want my kids to go to school thinking that it's normal to have one black kid in a graduating class of over 300. Or for her to be looked at as "different" because she not 100% white, just like every other kid in her class. It's just too segregated in the north. (no, that's not a typo)

If you don't think there's segregation in Atlanta as well, I'm afraid I've got some bad news. Unfortunately this is just how many older cities in the East still are. You might be best looking at moving out west if you want as little neighborhood segregation as possible.

How Segregated Is Atlanta? This Race Map Reveals The Truth. - Curbed Atlanta