Market Square removing public seating outside of lunch hours (Pittsburgh: live in, restaurants)

[Paul2421]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I work in Gateway Center, and walk to (or often through) Market Square a lot. I know exactly the kind of people who loiter there. But if you aren't comfortable with those kind of people being around, you aren't comfortable with being in a city period. It's not like you don't see them in South Side, Lawrenceville, or East Liberty.

Of course, a lot of tourists, or commuters, aren't completely okay with being in a city. That said I'm not sure that any city has "sanitized" itself enough to avoid offending the sensitivities of the most urban-phobic, who would really be more comfortable hanging out in a lifestyle center somewhere.

I understand what you mean but I'm not buying the pearl clutching argument. It makes sense in other neighborhoods where businesses are self-sustainable off those that live in the neighborhood, but downtown doesn't have enough residents yet to sustain the amount of amenities needed to lure outsiders and future residents into the area.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by tyovan4

I work downtown as well, and I'm through Market Square nearly daily as I enjoy walking around the Point on my lunch break.

This isn't about being uncomfortable in an urban environment. I walk through the Hill everyday too, as I park my car on Dinwiddie.

And of course you'll see someone mentally ill, or under the influence, or addicted in other city neighborhoods. You'll see them here and there, it's an accepted fact.

What has become unacceptable is that Market Square has become an area where there is a large concentration of the above folks. I don't have a problem walking through there. But is it an area where I'd lounge in a chair and enjoy a lunch I bought from one of the local merchants? No. Not anymore. I don't enjoy being around folks that are in an altered state of mind (and can't keep it to themselves) while they behave in a loud, uncouth, annoying manner; while hassling me for change.

I don't know why the cops don't get out of their car and walk around. I don't know if its laziness, or if they're politically shackled by the Potatohead Administration from being more pro-active with their enforcement.

This isn't just a problem that should be brushed off by saying "Well, it's an urban area". Market Square should be one of the crown jewels of downtown, and it should be kept as a desirable area for people to congregate. If retirees want to come down and play chess all day - great. No problem there, would actually make the place feel lively and cultured.

Instead it's becoming a drug market and a focal point for socially undesirable people to congregate for extended periods of time. It needs to be kept safe and appealing.

First, I absolutely agree with you there should be more of a police presence. I don't understand when the cops know there are open air drug deals going on within earshot that arrests are not being made. It wouldn't take that many arrests for the dealers (and publicly intoxicated) to know that Market Square is no longer a place to hang out. The cops wouldn't even have to patrol every day - just pick three days of the week randomly. That way visitors wouldn't be skeeved out about a constant police presence.

But bummy looking, possibly mentally ill guys just hanging out all day? That's part of city life. You'll find them in any park in NYC (even on the High Line) but it doesn't stop the area from being desirable.

[szug-bot]

Originally Posted by eschaton

But bummy looking, possibly mentally ill guys just hanging out all day? That's part of city life. You'll find them in any park in NYC (even on the High Line) but it doesn't stop the area from being desirable.

This is not walking along some street. We are talking about a place to STAY (for a while). Customers deserve a better experience. Besides, as its been mentioned, it isn't about the the shabby person or occasional mentally ill person (usually harmless). Are there or are there NOT drunks and drug sellers down there? This is an unacceptable thing to put up with. Put this scenario in a local residential neighborhood, and it would be bloody murder (calling Marty!).

[gg]

This is just a byproduct of the attack on police in America. The people demanded police not be proactive and this is the result. Go hyped up media go. I am glad they took the chairs out. We need to change our way of thinking if you want police to only respond to 911 calls and not be a proactive force. The moral of police departments around the country are super low as one would imagine, so we get what we get. I don't blame police one bit since we created this result.

[norcider]

I spent some time in CA in the early 2000's. The loitering in public places there was nuts. There's a park in Berkeley that as far as I can tell is wholly used by the homeless and drug addicted. We do not have it bad and as long as I have lived here I haven't seen it get any worse, it just hasn't. Market Square has historically been a congregation area for the downtrodden, what is the answer? Cops can shoo them away but they will be back in no time. There is no way anybody can expect to remove this element from Market Square and it has jack to do with any one administration. Business owners have a clue when they are vying for this area I am sure of it. Put up a store front in a known high traffic public space and expect it to look like the mall food court, yeah sure...

[eschaton]

I wonder if the City could partner with CMU to have police drones constantly flying about Market Square. You probably couldn't use them to catch people in the act, but would quickly amass a lot of video evidence of known drug dealers which could be used in charges against them.

[WhoIsStanwix?]

A lot of this is more likely the byproduct of lack of services available to those who need them, and a stigma that drug addicts and the mentally ill are criminals rather than humans who deserve medical treatment the same way someone who has cardiovascular disease. The American attitude on this front is rather closed-minded.

[DaisyDaisy]

I think people working or visiting an urban environment expect some level of city life that includes some panhandling, homeless people, mentally ill people hanging out, but curbing illegal drug sales and other harassing individuals via more police presence is the right thing to do for the city and its visitors, not just the Market Square restaurants (although I see their point too, given they pay taxes and should expect some level of lawfulness outside their doors). When you think about any public space in cities where people still like to hang out - Fisherman's Wharf, Union Square, Highline, etc., it's a nice place to hang out because the police ensure that a certain level of criminal activity is suppressed.

[sealie]

https://www.pps.org/blog/pitts-mkt-sq-reopens/

They spent $5M to rejuvenate MS and give downtown a shot in the arm. The city is not going to throw that money away without a fight. This is clearly not what they envisioned.

Something to consider: the people shrugging and saying this is NBD are almost exclusively young to young-middle-age males. Women and older men stay away from these situations. If you want to stop suburban flight, women need to feel safe. They won't have this problem down in soulless Southpointe.

[wpipkins2]

I think the city is going the cost effective route and using detectives as opposed to beat cops. The Square is under heavy surveillance and I am sure dealers are under the microscope. It is better to get to the root of the problem and eliminate the cancer at once. Similar to what was done to the previous Market Square businesses that were part of the drug trade prior to the redo.

As far as homeless people go, let them be. I frequent downtown and Market Square and I do not feel threatened by their presence. The dining establishments have dedicated outdoor seating and this is not used by the underbelly of society. This is the center of a large city and most people visiting from other large cities will turn a blind eye to it. That is part of city life. Name one city with a large centralized square that is devoid of "undesirable" people. Name one.

Keep the chairs, deal with the problem, and accept people for who they are.