bi-racial family wants to live in Pittsburgh (Oil City, Fox Chapel: middle-class, insurance)

[MountainLovin' Mom]

Hey, Windwalker: "San Diego to Pittsburgh, huh? You might need a passport!" lol... seriously!

You also wrote that your taxes are 40% of your mortgage payment each month. REALLY?? 40%? As in 4-0... not 4... but 40?? So if your mortgage payment is $800 per month, then your taxes are another $320?? REALLY?? Is it based on the monthly payment or the purchase price?

In CA the property taxes are based on the purchase price, divided out over 12 months. I think it's 1.25% which comes out to be a lot. We paid $600,000 for this house and our taxes are around $700 each month.

I totally appreciate knowing this. A huge tax payment each month would not be a nice surprise...bummer!

[GC49]

Originally Posted by MountainLovin' Mom

My husband works for Immigration. We currently live in San Diego and I have been begging him to move us out of here for years. He is black... I'm white... we have 2 great boys, 13 and 11. We live in a predominately white upper middle class community, and my kids have lots of nice friends here.

Now job opportunities are opening up all over the country for my husband (I'm a teacher). I have spent hours researching different cities in various parts of the country, and I have found Pittsburgh to be at the top of the list. It appears this city just might be the BEST place for us to make our home. We are looking for GREAT schools, reasonable cost of living (the mortgage here is killing us...), lots of sports and a decent climate.

Could someone please recommend a neighborhood that might be a good fit? I've looked at property on realtor.com, but I'm not sure which areas to look at, stay away from, etc.

I have a high school friend who lives in Glenshaw (we grew up in Texas). It would be nice to live near her if that will work. BTW, we'd like a large lot... maybe even 2-5 acres if possible. We have 4 dogs and love to be outside.

So... what do you all think?? Could Pittsburgh be right for us??

THANKS in advance for your time!

I would hope any part of Pittsburgh would be right for you and your family.

Of course, there might be other reasons you would want to live in certain sections of Pittsburgh over others. For example, some folks like the night life to be filled with booze, music and mayhem. Others like a quiet atmosphere with bingo halls, churches and card parties.

Whatever you want --we have it somewhere around here.

Best of Luck

[PeterRabbit]

Originally Posted by MountainLovin' Mom

Hey, Windwalker: "San Diego to Pittsburgh, huh? You might need a passport!" lol... seriously!

You also wrote that your taxes are 40% of your mortgage payment each month. REALLY?? 40%? As in 4-0... not 4... but 40?? So if your mortgage payment is $800 per month, then your taxes are another $320?? REALLY?? Is it based on the monthly payment or the purchase price?

In CA the property taxes are based on the purchase price, divided out over 12 months. I think it's 1.25% which comes out to be a lot. We paid $600,000 for this house and our taxes are around $700 each month.

I totally appreciate knowing this. A huge tax payment each month would not be a nice surprise...bummer!

Figure 3% to 4% of your assessment value as your yearly tax. $600,000 = $18,000 to $24,000 if in a good school district.

[BrianTH]

I think it is important to note that while property tax rates in the region can be very high, the property tax basis tends to be quite low, largely because property prices are low. The upshot is that property taxes overall are about middling in Pittsburgh (when you factor in both the higher rates and lower basis). And of course a lower property price usually means lower mortgage interest payments as well, so the total cost of home ownership in the region tends to be quite low (except for people who have lived in the same house a long time and paid off their mortgage, which is an important caveat). In fact, people here tend to pay significantly less of their income on their homes, even with the high property tax rates.

In that sense, your property taxes being a high percentage of your mortgage isn't necessarily a bad thing, provided that is because your mortgage payments are so darn low, as opposed to your property taxes being so darn high. But it is something you need to be prepared for.

[m4mica]

Originally Posted by PeterRabbit

Figure 3% to 4% of your assessment value as your yearly tax. $600,000 = $18,000 to $24,000 if in a good school district.

Keep in mind that property tax rates are VASTLY different in Allegheny County vs. the surrounding counties. In Butler County, for example, a $600K home will probably run around $5K / year. There is a reason that Cranberry Twp (just over the Allegheny County line and a reasonably easy drive to downtown) has been consistently one of the fastest growing regions in the country over the past decade.

[BrianTH]

By the way, there is not necessarily a correlation between high tax rates and well-funded schools. Again, that is because the actual tax receipts are a function of both the tax rates and the basis, and some school districts have high rates but a very low basis which leads to low total receipts.

[MissShona]

Originally Posted by zip95

Racism doesn't work like this at all. It may appear like that if you're looking at it from the bottom up, but that's not really what's going on.

As a general rule of thumb, racism will decrease as income increases. This is because people with money tend to be smarter and/or better educated. At a minimum, these accomplished people have come into contact with the upper echelons of black culture (at least in college). It takes a certain level of stupidity to not understand the difference between Dr. Watkins and Cousin Pookie from round-the-way.

Wow, that's a myth if I ever read one!

The truth is that the accomplished want nothing to do with ghetto people having ghetto accents and ghetto culture. They also want nothing to do with uneducated red necks who say younz. I promise you that if you can pull down a quarter million a year you won't have many problems in any upper-class community anywhere.

There are plenty of very well off people who talk like that, act like that, etc. Money doesn't always buy class (I won't call any names...but one such family is in Western PA and you can see their name on blue and white cranes worldwide). I feel this isn't the place to really dip into this; but people are opportunistic when it gets down to it. If they can benefit from you, they will associate with you; no matter how you act.

However, lower-middle to upper-middle class communities are a different story. Here exposure is the usual determining factor, with diverse communites tending to be more accepting.

That's actually what I said. You may want to read my original post again...

As a minority, there is something that we learn from an early age...to the point where it 'almost' feels natural...but it's not. That is the ability to not make the majority culture feel 'too uncomfortable'; because once they feel uncomfortable -- then they can make your life a living hell. Racism is not just spray painting the "n" word on houses; racism is when you assume and categorize mainly on someone's race. Educated, upper-class people certainly do this...and it's even worse because they think just because they took a class in something...they are an expert (and you can't tell them anything).

To the original poster....your concerns are certainly valid. Being a wealthy minority in Pittsburgh is a whole different ball game than being a wealthy minority in Atlanta. I stand by what I said in that Pittsburgh does have genuine attitudes on it's side; but if a Black person walks into a country club in Pittsburgh, people will stare at you - or think that you work there. It's just that uncommon here. They will give you a chance, but those initial ice-breakers may be tough.

I cannot give any suggestions on those neighborhoods because I have not lived in upper-class areas in this region (I'm currently adding to the statistics to the national unemployment ). But there are great posters on this board...check out what they have to say .

[Windwalker]

In short, taxes and how they're figured are something of a divine mystery here.

I live in a home in a cool part of town that was orginally a street-car community with front porches for visiting. Our house is 3500 square feet (not counting full basement), a big (6-br) old Victorian foursquare with original oak moldings, pocket doors, paneled staircase, stained glass. We paid 108k for it 8 years ago. Yes, 108,000. We had to redo the kitchen and bath, which we did mostly ourselves to tune of 35k. We can sell this house easy even in today's market for 240-250k. But some days it feels like we sold our soul to the house in blood, sweat, and tears. Rehabbing an old house can make some money, but it's not for everyone.

Our annual taxes are $4800 for real estate and school taxes. The county's reassessment in 2002 increased our property & school taxes from $1500, which is what our bill was when we bought it, to $4800 a year. Our house was reassessed at that time as worth $163k with the new kitchen. That was a hefty increase we had not counted on which hurt our family. Now, we could be quite glad that our house had increased in value by 55k with only a 20k investment in 2 years, but still . . . We refinanced from a 15-year mortgage to a 30-year, partly to re-do bath and put in central air. Husband had to get full-time job, which slowed rehabbing and caused serious family stress.

Because taxes are assessed in the funkiest way ever and property hadn't been reassessed in the county forever, we paid the price while the folks who'd bought Grandma's house that's just like ours for $2000 (yes, that's right!) only pay $1200 in taxes in the same neighborhood since some of the figures used for the reassessment are current sales prices.

Those are more accurate figures than monthly breakdowns of the mortage bill, which, of course, has us paying almost 50% in interest alone.

Keep in mind that we live in the city. Areas outside the city vary greatly, as has been said.

If you ever want to move somewhere where you'll have to pay 600k for a 1000 sq feet house again, you'll have less equity in your house to move outta here, making it hard to leave to go to just any situation.

And in many ways Pittsburgh is like going back in time 25-50 years compared to other places like San Diego. This isn't altogether bad, but it's a very different mindset--kinda like Appalachia meets NYC.

If I had it to do over again, I would despite this bellyaching. It's a great place for the kids. The cultural arts are great. It's a pretty city, and the surrounding countryside is quite beautiful. Especially for a mountain loving person. This is more piedmont/foothills compared to the Rockies, but Rialto St. (a.k.a pigs&*t hill) and Negley Ave. hill rivals any San Francisco street for steepness!

[BrianTH]

I think one of the takeaways from the tax situation is that you have to be prepared to spend less than you can afford (by normal, meaning national, standards) on a house. The good news is that you can spend less here and still get a lot more house than you would get in most other cities if you spent all you could afford.

But as Windwalker points out, that also means you likely won't end up with as much home equity as you would need to buy a comparable place (or even a less nice place) in another city if you decide to move. So, if you want to keep that option, you need to take some of the money you are not paying for your relatively inexpensive house in Pittsburgh and save it--which could in fact be saved in part in the form of paying down your mortgage early, but you could also put it in various other places.

In short, in the end I do believe all this usually comes out in favor of homeowners in the region. But you have to be aware of the somewhat unusual circumstances around here in order to make sure you are doing the sensible thing when it comes to choosing a home budget and structuring your finances.

[zip95]

Originally Posted by MissShona

Wow, that's a myth if I ever read one!

There are plenty of very well off people who talk like that, act like that, etc. Money doesn't always buy class (I won't call any names...but one such family is in Western PA and you can see their name on blue and white cranes worldwide). I feel this isn't the place to really dip into this; but people are opportunistic when it gets down to it. If they can benefit from you, they will associate with you; no matter how you act.

That's actually what I said. You may want to read my original post again...

As a minority, there is something that we learn from an early age...to the point where it 'almost' feels natural...but it's not. That is the ability to not make the majority culture feel 'too uncomfortable'; because once they feel uncomfortable -- then they can make your life a living hell. Racism is not just spray painting the "n" word on houses; racism is when you assume and categorize mainly on someone's race. Educated, upper-class people certainly do this...and it's even worse because they think just because they took a class in something...they are an expert (and you can't tell them anything).

To the original poster....your concerns are certainly valid. Being a wealthy minority in Pittsburgh is a whole different ball game than being a wealthy minority in Atlanta. I stand by what I said in that Pittsburgh does have genuine attitudes on it's side; but if a Black person walks into a country club in Pittsburgh, people will stare at you - or think that you work there. It's just that uncommon here. They will give you a chance, but those initial ice-breakers may be tough.

I guess that's one perspective....My perspective is slightly different.

Racism is being excluded from the business community, or not getting a job, or having a harder interview, or getting a lower grade on an essay.....these things matter.

Some one taking an extra long stare because the black upper-class in Pittsburgh is less common then in Atlanta or Chicago.....I don't see that as hindering any ones success in life. (People will stare at anything that's not the norm).

Now, we are in agreement that the world is full of ignorant people of all flavors. And I certainly agree that anyone sitting in a job or interview with one of these ignorant people will interpret the world as racist......At the same time, however, the business owner or the executive that can hire and fire these ignorant people, will see the world in a very different way.

And that's really the whole point, people in different economic classes live in different worlds. The supervisor of the PNC call-center and the CFO of UPMC perceive the world in totally different ways....I'd almost guarantee that if Don Barden moved in next door to the CFO, the CFO's first thought would be...can form a relationship and use that relationship to improve next quarters numbers. Whereas the call center supervisor just may start spray painting the N-word.