bi-racial family wants to live in Pittsburgh (Bethel Park, McKeesport: mortgage, real estate)

[MissShona]

Originally Posted by zip95

And that's really the whole point, people in different economic classes live in different worlds. The supervisor of the PNC call-center and the CFO of UPMC perceive the world in totally different ways....I'd almost guarantee that if Don Barden moved in next door to the CFO, the CFO's first thought would be...can form a relationship and use that relationship to improve next quarters numbers. Whereas the call center supervisor just may start spray painting the N-word.

Well all I can say that as a minority I don't give anyone "brownie points" in regards to race relations on the basis of economic status. You can be the CEO of Coca-Cola or you can be on the brink of being evicted from the trailer park (and anything in between). Although on the surface, it may seem that someone denying a job on the basis of racism is worse than spray painting racial slurs; but when you think about it, they are both pretty much equal. If a company won't hire me because I'm Black, I can just go out and try the next one (albeit with some bruised self-esteem). But if you vandalize my home, you violate my whole family and humiliate my sense of being an equal human. Both are just as bad really.

Plenty of poor and middle-class WASPS can relate to Black people just fine; and probably more come in regular contact with them (since they are such a larger percentage of Americans anyway). I even think that those of modest incomes and education have an edge in seeing the humanity of Black people more so than upper-classes since they usually don't view the Black community as some sort of sociological case-study as some upper-class Americans do.

[zip95]

Originally Posted by MissShona

Although on the surface, it may seem that someone denying a job on the basis of racism is worse than spray painting racial slurs; but when you think about it, they are both pretty much equal. If a company won't hire me because I'm Black, I can just go out and try the next one (albeit with some bruised self-esteem). But if you vandalize my home, you violate my whole family and humiliate my sense of being an equal human. Both are just as bad really.

One of those things will cost you 22% of your lifetime earning potential. The other will hurt your feelings....Therapy to fix your feelings is a lot cheaper than 22% of your lifetime earnings.

Originally Posted by MissShona

Plenty of poor and middle-class WASPS can relate to Black people just fine; and probably more come in regular contact with them (since they are such a larger percentage of Americans anyway). I even think that those of modest incomes and education have an edge in seeing the humanity of Black people more so than upper-classes since they usually don't view the Black community as some sort of sociological case-study as some upper-class Americans do.

Look. I'm not just sitting here behind my computer using my imagination. I'm telling you that attitudes born of pure emotion or sloppy thinking decrease with education and income...I'm not sure why this is so hard to believe.

Now sure...absolutely people who live in diverse environments tend to be more accepting of diversity...but that really has nothing to do with my point.

[Windwalker]

Racism is bad here in more subtle ways. The black community is run over in ways that astound me here. African Americans are shut out of jobs and earn less than most other cities in the US. It's ridiculous. Part of this is a historical problem since Pgh was a robber baron town that needed cheap labor, attracting all the immigrants no one wanted in the 19th century (except Asians)--eastern European, Irish Catholic, and then African Americans, who were lower than the other immigrants. AfAm's were not allowed to join unions and so were denied labor jobs that set other immigrants on the road to prosperity.

Meanwhile, the robber barons grew obscenely rich.

[BrianTH]

Windwalker,

The only good news is that the economy in the region is evolving and hopefully African-Americans will not face the same barriers to participation in the new economy. Unfortunately, we are talking about a skills-based economy, and the school funding situation is such that many of the economically depressed and predominantly African-American communities end up with grossly inadequate schools. So, although I wish this wasn't the case, right now I think it is going to take a long time for the region to undo the results of the history you described.

[MissShona]

Originally Posted by zip95

One of those things will cost you 22% of your lifetime earning potential. The other will hurt your feelings....Therapy to fix your feelings is a lot cheaper than 22% of your lifetime earnings.

LOL...are you kidding? That's the answer to those who have been racially discriminated against...therapy? Umm...I think the offenders, and not the victims are the ones that need therapy. People have no control over how they are born. Plus racism is so widespread...therapy should come included when you are born as a minority here then. Racism is not like rape...where you may be the only person you know who experienced this heinous crime; nope -- everyone in your family has felt it. There aren't enough therapists is the world...

Look. I'm not just sitting here behind my computer using my imagination. I'm telling you that attitudes born of pure emotion or sloppy thinking decrease with education and income...I'm not sure why this is so hard to believe.

Racism doesn't come from "pure emotion" or "sloppy thinking" -- it's more complex than that. Way more complex. It is a very adaptable attitude. I worked in real estate....where we had clients getting ready to buy 4 and 5 million dollar residential properties. Our company was predominantly Jewish and about 1/4 mix of Hispanic and Black. Despite these numbers, we always had those clients that would "prefer" dealing with the WASP guy. In fact, NONE of our salespeople were Black women; and we had many Black women who had done sales previously and working behind the scenes. From my perspective I don't know what came first (a chicken or the egge scenario) where the managers didn't give them the opportunity or if the clients attitudes determined the decision. But in the end it boils down to I know we had Black women on staff who would "fill in" and do very well (like save-some-deals very well) and were not given the sales positions (with the big commission $$$ ) as a result of racism. Oh, and this was "commonly known"; in that a manager (a Southern WASP by the way) even stated that "most Black women don't look polished enough to deal with our clients" -- which was completely untrue in that we saw the staff of some of our competitors and our Black women looked like contestants from America's Top Model compared to some of their Black women who looked like the just stepped out of a rap video (and they were doing just fine...because they were still our "competitors" -- not that we should dip to the lowest common denominator -- but obviously it was not killing their sales).

The truth of the matter is it is about equal. Whether the crowd drives Ferraris and Mercedes or if they drive old Chevy's...racist behavior has an equal chance of occurring. Sorry, but I've been to one too many "invite only" exclusive parties where people have asked in a nutshell "Oh and what are you doing here" and "Oh I didn't know you worked there"; and the main reason why they said it is because of how I look. Problem. Not normal. And I'll be last person to make any excuses for your behavior just because you have money and you call yourself "educated".

[zip95]

Originally Posted by MissShona

LOL...are you kidding? That's the answer to those who have been racially discriminated against...therapy? Umm...I think the offenders, and not the victims are the ones that need therapy. People have no control over how they are born. Plus racism is so widespread...therapy should come included when you are born as a minority here then. Racism is not like rape...where you may be the only person you know who experienced this heinous crime; nope -- everyone in your family has felt it. There aren't enough therapists is the world...





Racism doesn't come from "pure emotion" or "sloppy thinking" -- it's more complex than that. Way more complex. It is a very adaptable attitude. I worked in real estate....where we had clients getting ready to buy 4 and 5 million dollar residential properties. Our company was predominantly Jewish and about 1/4 mix of Hispanic and Black. Despite these numbers, we always had those clients that would "prefer" dealing with the WASP guy. In fact, NONE of our salespeople were Black women; and we had many Black women who had done sales previously and working behind the scenes. From my perspective I don't know what came first (a chicken or the egge scenario) where the managers didn't give them the opportunity or if the clients attitudes determined the decision. But in the end it boils down to I know we had Black women on staff who would "fill in" and do very well (like save-some-deals very well) and were not given the sales positions (with the big commission $$$ ) as a result of racism. Oh, and this was "commonly known"; in that a manager (a Southern WASP by the way) even stated that "most Black women don't look polished enough to deal with our clients" -- which was completely untrue in that we saw the staff of some of our competitors and our Black women looked like contestants from America's Top Model compared to some of their Black women who looked like the just stepped out of a rap video (and they were doing just fine...because they were still our "competitors" -- not that we should dip to the lowest common denominator -- but obviously it was not killing their sales).

The truth of the matter is it is about equal. Whether the crowd drives Ferraris and Mercedes or if they drive old Chevy's...racist behavior has an equal chance of occurring. Sorry, but I've been to one too many "invite only" exclusive parties where people have asked in a nutshell "Oh and what are you doing here" and "Oh I didn't know you worked there"; and the main reason why they said it is because of how I look. Problem. Not normal. And I'll be last person to make any excuses for your behavior just because you have money and you call yourself "educated".

I have no idea what this discussion is about anymore.....really, I'm completely baffled.

I started with the point that those in the highest social stratum tend to be more educated and hence have more sophisticated world views. This, in turn, means that blatantly racist attitudes tend to decrease.

Next, I explained that being black with a Mckeesport accent and social skills is different than being black with a Sewickley accent and social skills. Much like being white from Oil City is different than being white from Fox Chapel.

I then said that in the middle-to-lower economic classes racial attitudes tend to reflect the local diversity. In other words, more diversity usually means more tolerance.

Finally, I explained that racist acts that actually hurt financial advancement matter MUCH MUCH more than racist acts that simply hurt ones feelings.

I hope I have refocused this discussion. A good way to continue would be for you to explain exactly which points of mine you dispute.

[MountainLovin' Mom]

I just heard about a former co-worker who had moved from San Diego to Tucson and has moved back to SD. She is white, husband is mexican. The people in AZ were not very nice to them. This is happening a lot. One family moved to FL, one to TX, and now they're back in SD. The family that moved to Dallas is an all-white family, so it wasn't a race issue. I guess the people were just not nice.

I have been wanting to move out of CA for the last 20 years (I'm originally from Texas... came here in the military.). It's too dry and I'd like to experience all 4 seasons. The public schools are over-crowded. Most of all, of course, it's expensive. I would like to give my two boys the opportunity to attend high-achieving high schools to prepare them for college.

As I stated in the original post... we're a black/white mixed family. Will my kids make friends there like they have here? We have only lived here as a family. I am told that people in CA are different from people in the rest of the country... more accepting, easy-going. There has to be other places in this country where the people are kind. I just find it hard to believe that this is the only decent place to live!

I am the one wanting to move. My husband and kids would be fine staying here. If we move and find that we aren't welcomed and my kids hate it... well... it will be all my fault. If we stay here... we continue paying $2500 monthly mortgage payments as well as $750 monthly property tax payments plus insurance, etc.... Gas is $4 a gallon. We have no financial freedom... The high school my kids would attend here is rated 7 out of 10, with classes averaging 25 students. Is this the best there is??

If I had just married a white guy there would be no issue... it would be a no-brainer. Why does it have to matter?? Dang it!

[BrianTH]

MountainLovin' Mom,

Unfortunately, I guess you would have to talk to a lot of bi-racial couples in Pittsburgh to get an informed answer. For example, I can tell you there are neighborhoods with people of multiple races and bi-racial couples. I can also tell you that I have never personally witnessed any intolerant behavior directed toward such couples. But I can't speak for them.

For what it is worth, I have relatives in California, and they are not more accepting than most of the people I know here (some less, in fact). So I do think the idea that California is unique in this regard is not accurate.

[zip95]

Originally Posted by MountainLovin' Mom

Why does it have to matter?? Dang it!

MountainLovin' Mon...Don't fall for that!

This is what your mother meant when she told you that misery loves company. People who wallow in self-pity will try to bring you down to their level.....you can never ever let them.

Are you going to have big problems in a top 25 metro in 21st century American....I seriously doubt it. If you go to one of the upper-middle all-white suburbs you may get an occasional stare. If you choose one of the upper-middle school districts where diversity already exists, you won't even get that. Just stay away from low-diversity working-class areas (black or white) and don't go to far outside the city.

[MountainLovin' Mom]

You're right BrianTH. I would love to contact other mixed-race families out there. I'm not sure how I could go about doing that.

I hear what you're saying about people too. I truly believe there are good, kind-hearted people everywhere.

Thanks for your comments!