bi-racial family wants to live in Pittsburgh

[zip95]

Originally Posted by MissShona

It's so amazing how people can be so expert on things they haven't experienced. I have never been a Muslim and despite being a very strong Zionist, I don't for a second pretend to "explain away" the whys and hows of Jewish/Muslim discord (since my own Jewish perspective adds obvious bias). I am definitely not saying that only Black or Bi-racial or minority people can understand truly racism. But non-minorities cannot truly assess the effects/damages of racism because they have not experienced it first hand (think of a dermatologist and a burn victim -- he can study the effects of burns on the skin his entire life -- but until he has a third degree burn himself...does he truly know the thresholds of pain and the dimensions of living with the burn? Does he 'insult' the burn victim by trivializing the personal experiences of the burn victim?). Well I guess non-minorities could do what that guy in Soul Man did and turn themselves Black or something. But who wants to do that? (It's not that crucial really)

Uhhhhh........but seeing how I'm black, I feel completely qualified to say that you're making excuses. You've got to start accepting responsibility for your own life and stop blaming things you can't control. I understand that being black and living in the ghetto can seem like a prison sentence, but I'm telling you that circumstances are not out of your control. If you do the right things, it's completely possible to take your piece of the pie. And like I've been trying to tell you....it's even possible to rise above the most of the other nonsense.

[Herodotus]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

And in many ways Pittsburgh is like going back in time 25-50 years compared to other places like San Diego. This isn't altogether bad, but it's a very different mindset--kinda like Appalachia meets NYC.

LOL!! A very accurate description.

[zip95]

Originally Posted by zip95

Uhhhhh........but seeing how I'm black, I feel completely qualified to say that you're making excuses. You've got to start accepting responsibility for your own life and stop blaming things you can't control. I understand that being black and living in the ghetto can seem like a prison sentence, but I'm telling you that circumstances are not out of your control. If you do the right things, it's completely possible to take your piece of the pie. And like I've been trying to tell you....it's even possible to rise above the most of the other nonsense.

Or.....Don't take my word for it. Drive around some of the nicer parts of the Eastern suburbs, or some of the North Hills communities with emerging black populations. Even here in "lil' ole' Appalachian Pittsburgh" there are thousands of middle to upper-middle class blacks with two car garages, SUV's, and wives with mink coats.....ask them what they think about racism. You'll hear....."Sure, there's plenty of racism in the world, but I can't sit here crying....I've got bills to pay".

It is not 1970 and blacks are not a gigantic homogeneous group living in the ghetto and having the same life experiences. Black social structure has been fragmenting along economic lines for decades.....(But this shouldn't be a surprise, this is what Affirmative Action was meant to do.......fast track economic development) .....But back to the topic at hand, I'll re-state my point for the umpteenth time. A black person from the city or a black person from a dying, steel-mill, river-town will see the world very differently than a black person frow Sewickley who went to Quaker Valley and then Harvard.

[MissShona]

Originally Posted by zip95

Uhhhhh........but seeing how I'm black, I feel completely qualified to say that you're making excuses. You've got to start accepting responsibility for your own life and stop blaming things you can't control. I understand that being black and living in the ghetto can seem like a prison sentence, but I'm telling you that circumstances are not out of your control. If you do the right things, it's completely possible to take your piece of the pie. And like I've been trying to tell you....it's even possible to rise above the most of the other nonsense.

I don't make excuses for my life; never have, never will. I'm not living in the ghetto - yes Clairton is broke, but the house I stay in is surrounded by empty lots and elderly people - I'm in Jefferson Borough in like 2 minutes by car -- 10 minutes by foot....what in the world are you talking about?

[MissShona]

Originally Posted by zip95

Or.....Don't take my word for it. Drive around some of the nicer parts of the Eastern suburbs, or some of the North Hills communities with emerging black populations. Even here in "lil' ole' Appalachian Pittsburgh" there are thousands of middle to upper-middle class blacks with two car garages, SUV's, and wives with mink coats.....ask them what they think about racism. You'll hear....."Sure, there's plenty of racism in the world, but I can't sit here crying....I've got bills to pay".

It is not 1970 and blacks are not a gigantic homogeneous group living in the ghetto and having the same life experiences. Black social structure has been fragmenting along economic lines for decades.....(But this shouldn't be a surprise, this is what Affirmative Action was meant to do.......fast track economic development) .....But back to the topic at hand, I'll re-state my point for the umpteenth time. A black person from the city or a black person from a dying, steel-mill, river-town will see the world very differently than a black person frow Sewickley who went to Quaker Valley and then Harvard.

I could care less about Black people in different social stratum; that is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about Whites in the majority. But if you do want to hear about racism from Blacks across various social stratum, please read Amazon.com: America Behind The Color Line: Dialogues with African Americans: Henry Louis Gates: Books - I cannot recommend this book enough. It covers racism experienced by those in the projects all the way up to millionaire monguls. It also relates the experiences with American racism by non-minorities; who are thankfully candid enough to state things how they are (not necessarily how their own personal views are -- but situations where their own personal views just 'wouldn't fly' as a norm in business).

I find your last sentence interesting; and damaging. I grew up in broke steel-mill towns all my life. However I had close friends who were millionaires living in Miami Beach, New York and South Africa. Most of my friends however came from middle-class homes -- but now I'm meeting more and more people from lower-class and inner-city places. What I've personally seen is that there are a lot of factors that develop someone's worldview. I found others with a worldview quite similar to my own within all those groups. All of them. To think that someone thinks a certain way just because they came from such-and-such a place is doing much more harm than racism can. Like I will say for the "umpteenth" time -- I and everyone else I know is a frickin' human being that is multi-faceted, unique and reacts differently to different environments.

[Dorian]

Originally Posted by Pitman

Calling South Park and even Bethel Park "upper middle class" is quite a reach.
They are middle class but just because they are mostly white doesn't mean they are upper class. It does a disservice to the readers of this forum when people throw around terms like "upper class", "ghetto" and "racist". Some readers from other areas aren't as familiar with the Pittsburgh region as we are and are here to learn about the region. Fox Chapel, Sewickley Heights and Edgeworth are upper middle class South park is not.

Have you ever been to Bethel Park or South Park? Bethel Park is basically just like Mt. Lebanon, and alot of people on here consider that to be upper middle class. Check out Grandview Farms. Maybe not all of South Park though, I'll give you that.

[Dorian]

Originally Posted by zip95

Uhhhhh........but seeing how I'm black, I feel completely qualified to say that you're making excuses. You've got to start accepting responsibility for your own life and stop blaming things you can't control. I understand that being black and living in the ghetto can seem like a prison sentence, but I'm telling you that circumstances are not out of your control. If you do the right things, it's completely possible to take your piece of the pie. And like I've been trying to tell you....it's even possible to rise above the most of the other nonsense.

I agree with what you said about accepting resposibility for your own life, but there is a serious problem here in pittsburgh. We need the ones who are doing good for themselves to help the community, it is a problem that for some strange reason there is a lack of middle class blacks and the upper class blacks could care less. It's bad enough that there is a decent amount of racist white people in pittsburgh, but it is worst that there is alot of racist blacks toward other blacks that are in some what power positions.

[Pitman]

Originally Posted by Dorian

Have you ever been to Bethel Park or South Park? Bethel Park is basically just like Mt. Lebanon, and alot of people on here consider that to be upper middle class. Check out Grandview Farms. Maybe not all of South Park though, I'll give you that.

Yes, I lived in South Park for 19 years and have worked for 16 years in Bethel Park. I think that would make me an expert. I have also lived in Mt. Lebanon but only for a couple years. Have you ever been to Mine 3, Coverdale, downtown Library, Curry, behind Stewart School, Parkford? Tell those people they are upper class! Other than few neighborhoods off of Ridge Road and Stewart/Stoltz Roads; South Park is predominately middle and working class. Bethel Park and Mt Lebanon are both nice but not really that similar. Lebo is more of a walking community with older and grander homes and a real urban-feel downtown. Bethel is predominately "Ryan Homes" style housing plans and 50's era ranches with shopping centers and Big Box stores. And nobody in Bethel is walking anywhere. Grandview Farms is nice but its the absolute nicest plan in Bethel Park and its only maybe 25-30 homes. Its much nicer than anywhere else in town. That's not really a fair example.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to dump on SP and BP. They are perfectly nice places for anyone to live and I have lived in SP the past and would move there again. I just don't consider them as exclusive upper class areas as portrayed on this board. Not even on a level with Mt lebo or USC.

[BrianTH]

Just my two cents, but I don't think there is any consensus about what constitutes the dividing line between "upper middle class" and "upper class". My feeling (based on a historical viewpoint on all this) is that you are not truly upper class until you can live a "rich" lifestyle with just the income from your wealth, and not including the income from wages (including within the latter category Social Security, pensions, 401Ks, and so on). But it is true that functionally, people with sufficiently high household incomes will be living a "rich" lifestyle, and at a certain point whether or not they keep working becomes a question of exactly how wealthy they want to be.