What don't you like about Pittsburgh? (York, Washington: property taxes, housing, condo)

[J. Gershon]

Glad to see I wasn't the only one who hates the cloudy weather. Also must mention the roads, the police, and Luke Ravenstahl. Oh, and 'Burghers put pork in EVERYTHING !!!!

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Of course, as I noted above, I am also not sure how this theory of Pittsburgh being filled with uninhabitable homes explains the available statistics, which reflect lower prices in Pittsburgh among the homes actually being sold. I guess one could hypothesize that people were literally being forced to buy "uninhabitable" homes in Pittsburgh due to the lack of any alternative, but when I have looked at the Pittsburgh market recently, there were plenty of "habitable" homes available (even in the dead of winter), and in all my time on this forum, I can't recall anyone claiming that they were forced into buying an uninhabitable home when they moved to Pittsburgh because they couldn't find anything else.

I remember a woman on the forum saying she rejected a house in Mt. Lebanon b/c it had the kitchen in the basement. This is a house that was on the market that someone has probably since bought! Of course, it being Mt. Leb, it probably also commandeered a premium price, but that's one example of undesirable housing. There are houses on the market in Beaver Falls for <50K. Investors buy some of these houses.

[subdivisions]

The house I bought in the East End needed a bit of cosmetic fixing, but it was definitely "habitable". Mostly we painted and retiled the kitchen floor and so forth. We could have easily lived in it as it was when we moved in and been happy. During our house search, we found a number of houses like this one in our price range - not perfect and sometimes very old-fashioned in terms of decor, but hardly something that a normal person couldn't live in if they needed a house.

Conversely, there were very few houses available in that price range in Colorado Springs, the city I came from, and most of the ones that were in that price range were definitely more in the "uninhabitable" end of the spectrum than the ones I looked at in Pittsburgh (literal shacks 40 miles from town with no running water and so forth). In my home town, Flagstaff, you probably couldn't find so much as a closet in someone's shack for the price I paid for my needs-painted house I bought in Pittsburgh. My friends in LA can't even get a decent apartment for twice the price of my mortgage here. Frankly, I feel lucky that I was able to afford a house here that just needed a little cosmetic fix-up.

And personally, I think that the social norm of considering a house "uninhabitable" because it fails to have granite countertops and stainless appliances, neutral designer paint on the walls, wasn't built in the last three years, has un-fashionable types of floor plans and so forth, is one of the primary reasons why we have a mortgage crisis in this country. A house has a kitchen in the basement - OMG, the horror! Come on, that's weird I admit, but it hardly means that a normal person literally couldn't live in the place.

Jeez. What a bunch of house snobs we have all turned into in the last few years! It wasn't that long ago that people thought a starter home was 1200 square feet and something that might need a little work. Now people think they deserve to have the highest social status house on the block from the very first house they buy, and anything else is just unacceptable. These kinds of attitudes have come back to bite us in the ass in many cities around the nation.

If you really want to see "uninhabitable", take a look at some of the pictures of tent cities during the Depression. Take a good long look at that. Because that's where we all might end up if people don't get their heads out of house-fantasyland, where every single person deserves to live in a brand-new mansion just because they've seen everybody else buying them on HGTV.

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Shadyside is more than a "decent neighborhood": it is the most expensive neighborhood in the East End. If you compare Shadyside prices to the most expensive city neighborhoods in most equivalent cities, the prices in Shadyside will indeed still be lower (e.g., $600K won't get you anything in one of the top neighborhoods in DC--in fact, it won't get you anything in one of the middle-ranked neighborhoods, and you would instead have to look at one of the transitional areas if you only wanted to spend that much). Similarly, if you look in less expensive East End neighborhoods (there is a whole range: Squirrel Hill and Point Breeze are a bit less expensive than Shadyside, places like Regent Square and Highland Park are even less expensive, and so on), and compare those to the equivalently-ranked city neighborhoods in most other cities, you will again find that same differential.

As an aside, what do you mean by "so called suburbs"? What else would you call the suburbs in the Pittsburgh region?

Anyway, we didn't "gut" our place: most of what we did was cosmetic (e.g., we stripped a lot of painted molding and added a lot of new moldings) or an upgrade (e.g., we decided to replace some functional but older windows and appliances, and added a bath), but the home was basically in move-in condition when we bought it. And in my recent research, I have again been focusing on places which would not need much if any work.

As for your personal experience, obviously I am in no position to address that, so all I can do is repeat that I have in fact recently compared prices in many cities and found something very different from what you are reporting. And I might ask if you have recently surveyed prices in the cities where you have lived in the past, since many places experienced a large run up in the last 10 or so years. Pittsburgh, in contrast, only had moderate appreciation in that time (a bit more in the most popular neighborhoods, but still nothing like what happened in many cities overall), which is one of the reasons the current differential is so high. But if you were comparing Pittsburgh prices now to prices in cities where you lived years ago, it is true you might not detect as much of a difference.

Of course, as I noted above, I am also not sure how this theory of Pittsburgh being filled with uninhabitable homes explains the available statistics, which reflect lower prices in Pittsburgh among the homes actually being sold. I guess one could hypothesize that people were literally being forced to buy "uninhabitable" homes in Pittsburgh due to the lack of any alternative, but when I have looked at the Pittsburgh market recently, there were plenty of "habitable" homes available (even in the dead of winter), and in all my time on this forum, I can't recall anyone claiming that they were forced into buying an uninhabitable home when they moved to Pittsburgh because they couldn't find anything else.

DC is a much better city! You get what you pay for, plus the wages are higher. I used to live in Richmond and know a TON of people who commuted to DC so I'm aware of the prices. I also used to live in Sterling right outside of DC.

Well, because my idea (and probably most other people's) idea of a suburb is a place that has sidewalks, stores, and post offices that don't take you 20 minutes to get to.

I apologize about the condition of your house. I was under the impression that you had gutted it since much of the conversation earlier was focused on all things 'rebuild' in older homes. My bad.

You can compare prices all you want on line Brian, but have you actually lived in any of these other places? Because let me tell you, right now, you can buy a house in Phoenix that would blow your socks off here for 150K.

And for goodness sake, I never said anyone was "forced" into buying an uninhabitable house, but I still stand by what I said, the houses that are cheap in Pittsburgh and in need of a great deal of work or and in neighborhoods many people wouldn't want to live in.

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by subdivisions

The house I bought in the East End needed a bit of cosmetic fixing, but it was definitely "habitable". Mostly we painted and retiled the kitchen floor and so forth. We could have easily lived in it as it was when we moved in and been happy. During our house search, we found a number of houses like this one in our price range - not perfect and sometimes very old-fashioned in terms of decor, but hardly something that a normal person couldn't live in if they needed a house.

Conversely, there were very few houses available in that price range in Colorado Springs, the city I came from, and most of the ones that were in that price range were definitely more in the "uninhabitable" end of the spectrum than the ones I looked at in Pittsburgh (literal shacks 40 miles from town with no running water and so forth). In my home town, Flagstaff, you probably couldn't find so much as a closet in someone's shack for the price I paid for my needs-painted house I bought in Pittsburgh. My friends in LA can't even get a decent apartment for twice the price of my mortgage here. Frankly, I feel lucky that I was able to afford a house here that just needed a little cosmetic fix-up.

And personally, I think that the social norm of considering a house "uninhabitable" because it fails to have granite countertops and stainless appliances, neutral designer paint on the walls, wasn't built in the last three years, has un-fashionable types of floor plans and so forth, is one of the primary reasons why we have a mortgage crisis in this country. A house has a kitchen in the basement - OMG, the horror! Come on, that's weird I admit, but it hardly means that a normal person literally couldn't live in the place.

Jeez. What a bunch of house snobs we have all turned into in the last few years! It wasn't that long ago that people thought a starter home was 1200 square feet and something that might need a little work. Now people think they deserve to have the highest social status house on the block from the very first house they buy, and anything else is just unacceptable. These kinds of attitudes have come back to bite us in the ass in many cities around the nation.

If you really want to see "uninhabitable", take a look at some of the pictures of tent cities during the Depression. Take a good long look at that. Because that's where we all might end up if people don't get their heads out of house-fantasyland, where every single person deserves to live in a brand-new mansion just because they've seen everybody else buying them on HGTV.

Subdivisions,
Just curious, when did you move to Pitt?

[subdivisions]

Originally Posted by londonbarcelona

Subdivisions,
Just curious, when did you move to Pitt?

And here I thought you had me on ignore.

I moved here in 2003. We rented for 3 years, and then bought a house in Point Breeze last year.

During my time in Colorado Springs I worked for both a realtor and a mortgage company, which is why I know so much about the housing market there.

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by subdivisions

And here I thought you had me on ignore.

I moved here in 2003. We rented for 3 years, and then bought a house in Point Breeze last year.

During my time in Colorado Springs I worked for both a realtor and a mortgage company, which is why I know so much about the housing market there.

ok, thanks, Phoenix at that time hadn't experienced it's price jump yet (and has fallen to levels that are nearly back to normal.) had Colorado Springs experienced a price jump before you left??

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by londonbarcelona

DC is a much better city! You get what you pay for, plus the wages are higher.

I am very familiar with what you can get in DC housing market, and also the wages paid. It is true you get paid a bit more in DC than you would in Pittsburgh for a comparable job. What you don't get is a wage three to four times higher, and that is a typical differential in housing prices. Seriously. You can easily spend $600K (or more) in DC on a small house (2 bedroom) in a transitional neighborhood, and in one of the nicest neighborhoods in the NW? Maybe a one bedroom condo, but forget about a house.

I used to live in Richmond and know a TON of people who commuted to DC so I'm aware of the prices. I also used to live in Sterling right outside of DC.

When was this? I ask because DC is one of those places that has experienced really high appreciation over just the last few years.

Well, because my idea (and probably most other people's) idea of a suburb is a place that has sidewalks, stores, and post offices that don't take you 20 minutes to get to.

That sounds like a pretty nice suburb, and of course Pittsburgh has some pretty nice suburbs. But of course lots of cities, including Pittsburgh, have not-so-nice suburbs. In fact, I grew up in a perfectly decent middle-class suburb in the Detroit area, but it didn't fit your description.

In general, by definition a suburb is just a residential community on the outskirts of a city that is neither urban nor rural. There is no guarantee the local zoning laws will require sidewalks, encourage mixed use neighborhoods, or so on.

I apologize about the condition of your house. I was under the impression that you had gutted it since much of the conversation earlier was focused on all things 'rebuild' in older homes. My bad.

No problem.

You can compare prices all you want on line Brian, but have you actually lived in any of these other places?

Yes. I've lived in Detroit, Connecticut, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Hollidaysburg (PA), and Washington DC. I also have immediate family living in Detroit (father), Denver/Boulder (sister), Portland (OR) (brother), and San Mateo (mother). My immediate inlaws live in Delaware, Denver/Boulder again, Miami, and Sarasota. I have close friends in many more cities who have recently bought homes or are currently looking. We were recently at least considering living in several places, including Chicago, DC, Philly, New York, and Denver, so I looked pretty carefully at what was available.

Because let me tell you, right now, you can buy a house in Phoenix that would blow your socks off here for 150K.

I am always interested in seeing places, even if I am not in the market, so I would enjoy being shown what you are talking about.

And for goodness sake, I never said anyone was "forced" into buying an uninhabitable house ...

No you didn't. Rather, that was my point about the statistics I am using: to briefly review, the NAR reports statistics about the prices of homes actually sold. So, the only houses which affect those statistics are the ones for which there is a willing buyer. So, any uninhabitable homes in Pittsburgh shouldn't have much of an affect on the statistics, since they are not going to be the homes people are actually buying. The only reason that would not be true is if somehow the inventory of more desirable homes was so low people were being forced to buy these highly undesirable homes, but I see no reason to believe that is happening. But again, that was indeed my point.

but I still stand by what I said, the houses that are cheap in Pittsburgh and in need of a great deal of work or and in neighborhoods many people wouldn't want to live in.

And again, my point is that these homes may exist in Pittsburgh, but they shouldn't be dominating the available statistics, since those statistics are about the homes actually being bought.

[guylocke]

I am very familiar with what you can get in DC housing market, and also the wages paid. It is true you get paid a bit more in DC than you would in Pittsburgh for a comparable job. What you don't get is a wage three to four times higher, and that is a typical differential in housing prices. Seriously. You can easily spend $600K (or more) in DC on a small house (2 bedroom) in a transitional neighborhood, and in one of the nicest neighborhoods in the NW? Maybe a one bedroom condo, but forget about a house.

DC is WICKED bad. I must fully disagree with the opinion that you get what you pay for. That couldn't be further from the truth (from my experience) and I am in DC a lot. I personally wouldn't live in DC due to the traffic alone. But there are shacks in Alexandria (where I have many relatives) that sell for half a million dollars or more.

That is far from reasonable. And the price difference regarding Pittsburgh wages and a city like DC has also been narrowing quite a bit in recent times.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by guylocke

DC is WICKED bad. I must fully disagree with the opinion that you get what you pay for. That couldn't be further from the truth (from my experience) and I am in DC a lot. I personally wouldn't live in DC due to the traffic alone. But there are shacks in Alexandria (where I have many relatives) that sell for half a million dollars or more.

That is far from reasonable.

It really has gotten crazy in DC. On top of that, the school situation is a nightmare: there are decent public schools in a few places, but you will pay a huge premium to buy homes in those areas. If you instead opt to pay a bit less for your house and use private schools, the better ones will charge you ridiculous sums (as in well over $20K for the day students, sometimes over $30K).

And the price difference regarding Pittsburgh wages and a city like DC has also been narrowing quite a bit in recent times.

This is getting a bit off topic, but I was fascinated to find out that the 2008 General Schedule (the pay schedule for most federal civilian employees) has a 20.89% locality adjustment for DC, and a 14.93% adjustment for Pittsburgh. As we have been discussing, that roughly 6% difference is grossly inadequate to make up the difference in housing costs. But I guess the federal government could not get away with paying people in DC twice as much as they were paid in Pittsburgh.

And as I have noted here before, I really wonder if this is a sustainable set of circumstances. My friends in places like DC, NYC, or SF who didn't buy their first house several years ago are looking at the prospect of being saddled with huge mortgages just to buy basic homes, often far from their place of employment. If this doesn't change, I don't see how those cities won't eventually experience a huge drain of young professionals looking for more affordable housing (and easily willing to take something like a 6% pay cut to get it).