What don't you like about Pittsburgh? (California, Dallas: 2010, appliances, loan)

[kpoeppel]

Guylocke,

I hope what you say is true. I no big fan of Rendell, but if he is trying to lower the CNI tax more power to him. The high CNI tax in PA is definitely a huge turn-off to the business crowd.

[wordzgirl]

What I don't like about Pittsburgh:

1. Gray, dreary, long winters - need I say more?

2. Ridiculous taxes - we sold our home for $137,000, 1700 square feet, 50 plus years old, and our taxes were $3,800 a year. Here in SC, for a $265,000, 2400 sqaure foot five bedroom new home the taxes are $1,900

3. Complete resistance to change - "We've always done things this way so we'll always continue to do them this way."

4. Having to know the right people to be able to get a teaching job. It's always made me angry that my 40 something husband with a master's degree, tons of life experience, two kids, a background teaching music lessons, coaching soccer, Cub Scout leader, working with delinquent youth and retarded people was not hired for a teaching job while a 22-year-old who worked in a bar in college and has an uncle on a school board got the job

5. Unions, unions, unions - I'm a former Teamster, and the only thing they ever did for me was take a big chunk out of my paychecks every year

I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, and I do love the city - my best friends in the world live there, and I truly believe that Pittsburgh people are the nicest anywhere. But I have to say that I will never move back, for the very reasons cited above.

[goodgirl49]

Originally Posted by wordzgirl

What I don't like about Pittsburgh:

1. Gray, dreary, long winters - need I say more?

2. Ridiculous taxes - we sold our home for $137,000, 1700 square feet, 50 plus years old, and our taxes were $3,800 a year. Here in SC, for a $265,000, 2400 sqaure foot five bedroom new home the taxes are $1,900

3. Complete resistance to change - "We've always done things this way so we'll always continue to do them this way."

4. Having to know the right people to be able to get a teaching job. It's always made me angry that my 40 something husband with a master's degree, tons of life experience, two kids, a background teaching music lessons, coaching soccer, Cub Scout leader, working with delinquent youth and retarded people was not hired for a teaching job while a 22-year-old who worked in a bar in college and has an uncle on a school board got the job

5. Unions, unions, unions - I'm a former Teamster, and the only thing they ever did for me was take a big chunk out of my paychecks every year

I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, and I do love the city - my best friends in the world live there, and I truly believe that Pittsburgh people are the nicest anywhere. But I have to say that I will never move back, for the very reasons cited above.

Very good post wordzgirl. I agree with most everything you said. It just reinforces my belief that you and your family made the right decision to move south.

[kpoeppel]

wordzgirl,

Amen to all 5 of those. 2, 3, 4, and 5 are closely linked by the following problem: absolute economic security for people with the right connections, at the expense of everyone else. That's why so many of the "everyone else's" decide to move away.

[BrianTH]

I think part of the reason there hasn't been a flood of businesses moving to Pittsburgh because of the lower cost of living is the recency of certain developments. In particular, up until recently, while it was certainly more expensive to live in places like Boston, NYC, DC, SF, LA, or so on, it was still possible for professionals to live comfortably, so all a business had to do was pay a slightly higher salary to even things out a bit.

But in the last decade or so, the housing price boom really did get out of control in a lot of cities, and now even some dual-income professional households are struggling to maintain a moderate lifestyle in these cities because of those high housing prices. So, it does seem likely to me that unless that changes, there will indeed be great pressure on businesses to start relocating to more affordable cities.

But this is going to happen at a lag, for a relatively simple reason: if you, say, had already gotten on the real estate ladder before or near the beginning of these developments, then you may well have done OK as your own home (or a series of homes) appreciated during this time. It is instead the people who are just starting out now (the ones graduating from colleges and law schools and medical schools and so on) who are finding the situation more intolerable.

So, it doesn't surprise me the effect has not yet been overwhelming. But again, unless things change (meaning there is a dramatic convergence in housing prices), I do think the pressure on businesses in these very expensive cities will keep building and building as more and more people find their salaries simply cannot support the lifestyle they were expecting.

[juliegt]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I think part of the reason there hasn't been a flood of businesses moving to Pittsburgh because of the lower cost of living is the recency of certain developments. In particular, up until recently, while it was certainly more expensive to live in places like Boston, NYC, DC, SF, LA, or so on, it was still possible for professionals to live comfortably, so all a business had to do was pay a slightly higher salary to even things out a bit.

But in the last decade or so, the housing price boom really did get out of control in a lot of cities, and now even some dual-income professional households are struggling to maintain a moderate lifestyle in these cities because of those high housing prices. So, it does seem likely to me that unless that changes, there will indeed be great pressure on businesses to start relocating to more affordable cities.

But this is going to happen at a lag, for a relatively simple reason: if you, say, had already gotten on the real estate ladder before or near the beginning of these developments, then you may well have done OK as your own home (or a series of homes) appreciated during this time. It is instead the people who are just starting out now (the ones graduating from colleges and law schools and medical schools and so on) who are finding the situation more intolerable.

So, it doesn't surprise me the effect has not yet been overwhelming. But again, unless things change (meaning there is a dramatic convergence in housing prices), I do think the pressure on businesses in these very expensive cities will keep building and building as more and more people find their salaries simply cannot support the lifestyle they were expecting.

I do wonder that with the big drop in housing prices if there will be a mini-boom in the near future in places like NYC, SF, Boston where prices have gone down considerably compared to what they once were (though still unaffordable compared to other parts of the country). In other words, will the price drop in popular markets keep people from choosing places like Pittsburgh because the "popular" markets are becoming somewhat more affordable? I don't have a crystal ball, but this is something I've been thinking about lately.

[By~Tor]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I think part of the reason there hasn't been a flood of businesses moving to Pittsburgh because of the lower cost of living is the recency of certain developments. In particular, up until recently, while it was certainly more expensive to live in places like Boston, NYC, DC, SF, LA, or so on, it was still possible for professionals to live comfortably, so all a business had to do was pay a slightly higher salary to even things out a bit.

But in the last decade or so, the housing price boom really did get out of control in a lot of cities, and now even some dual-income professional households are struggling to maintain a moderate lifestyle in these cities because of those high housing prices. So, it does seem likely to me that unless that changes, there will indeed be great pressure on businesses to start relocating to more affordable cities.

But this is going to happen at a lag, for a relatively simple reason: if you, say, had already gotten on the real estate ladder before or near the beginning of these developments, then you may well have done OK as your own home (or a series of homes) appreciated during this time. It is instead the people who are just starting out now (the ones graduating from colleges and law schools and medical schools and so on) who are finding the situation more intolerable.

So, it doesn't surprise me the effect has not yet been overwhelming. But again, unless things change (meaning there is a dramatic convergence in housing prices), I do think the pressure on businesses in these very expensive cities will keep building and building as more and more people find their salaries simply cannot support the lifestyle they were expecting.

Very well put... but here in NYC, there's already an ongoing exodus of people who have been priced out and jobs/wages haven't kept up with the pace for about three years now... I know several who are either moving farther out to commute, or away, completely.... but of course, New York being New York, there'll always be more starry-eyed newcomers inbound, thinking that this city couldn't possible eat THEM alive, too.....

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by juliegt

I do wonder that with the big drop in housing prices if there will be a mini-boom in the near future in places like NYC, SF, Boston where prices have gone down considerably compared to what they once were (though still unaffordable compared to other parts of the country). In other words, will the price drop in popular markets keep people from choosing places like Pittsburgh because the "popular" markets are becoming somewhat more affordable? I don't have a crystal ball, but this is something I've been thinking about lately.

I don't really know for sure, but my sense is that housing prices have not yet converged enough to really eliminate the growing pressure on newer/moving households to look in more affordable cities. Basically, I think the recent developments have taken out the speculative margin, but the fundamental supply and demand situation is still keeping prices high.

Incidentally, part of what is happening in coastal cities is that the weak dollar is encouraging foreign people to buy American real estate (e.g., Londoners buying in New York). That is part of why demand is so high for centrally-located real estate in all these cities.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by By~Tor

Very well put... but here in NYC, there's already an ongoing exodus of people who have been priced out and jobs/wages haven't kept up with the pace for about three years now... I know several who are either moving farther out to commute, or away, completely.... but of course, New York being New York, there'll always be more starry-eyed newcomers inbound, thinking that this city couldn't possible eat THEM alive, too.....

That is another thing that creates a reponse lag: as a first alternative, people sometimes try to look for less expensive housing farther away from the employment centers, and it is only over time that the long commutes become intolerable. But I agree that effect may be coming to an end as we speak--indeed, it is those farthest-flung exurbs which have often experienced the greatest price drops recently, implying the demand for them has fallen off sharply.

[kpoeppel]

Maybe we should just become like the Amish, so that the longest commute is from the house to the barn and the only traffic is the occaisional chicken or cow. Sometimes I wonder: why do we Americans do what we do? Why do we spend our whole lives sitting in traffic and enslaving ourselves to landlords/banks in some vain hope for happiness "someday"?